Trump's ban creates shockwaves

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  • #26657
    paulwalker
    Participant

    Many detained at JFK. Airport protests break out throughout country. This is blowing up around the world and it isn’t a good look for our new President.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/donald-trump-executive-order-immigration-reaction/index.html

    #26658
    edselehr
    Participant

    Lots of Bernie or third-party supporters who voted Trump (or didn’t vote for Hillary) were likely looking to “blow the system up” and start over.

    Congratulations to them.

    #26659
    Andrew
    Participant

    Unfortunately, we may have a lot of “starting over” to do in 4-8 years…

    #26660
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Lots of Bernie or third-party supporters who voted Trump (or didn’t vote for Hillary) were likely looking to “blow the system up” and start over.

    Congratulations to them.

    Too damn bad Democrats tell those people they are not needed, and continue to do that. They didn’t have to do that. Shouldn’t have.

    Trump was entirely avoidable. People were clear about where their support was. Telling half the party it’s not needed, or wrong and that moderate Republicans are the answer tends to reduce support.

    Given a majority of Americans aren’t doing well economically? What incentive do they have to take yet another one for a much smaller team, who really isn’t all that interested in standing up for them? It is supposed to be representative government, right? Didn’t represent, lost their ass.

    Hey look, Liz confirmed that bat shit nuts ass Carson!

    Put the blame where it needs to be. Hate Trump, hate what’s happening too.

    How come Dems didn’t reach out for that massive body of support? How come they told those people to get lost? Twice?

    You all go ahead and keep thinking it’s the fault of people in need. Hating on the poor is popular these days. My god! The gall of working people actually wanting policy aimed at them?

    LMAO That shit lost 1000 seats! It’s not like people don’t notice. A lot of them are asking, “WTF?”, as they should.

    Later kids. There are better places to be right now. This is embarrassing.

    #26663
    edselehr
    Participant

    Think I was trying to be critical or sarcastic, Missing? I was serious.

    The only two viable candidates after the conventions were Clinton and Trump. Any action other than a vote for Clinton increased Trump’s chances of a win, and anyone who thought otherwise was either self-delusional, or bad at basic math – or was willing to allow a Trump win, and the resulting chaos we are now seeing.

    My post above addresses those rational people who knew Trump was a hot mess, yet didn’t vote for Hillary. They knew the risks of such a move, and I assume they were ready and willing to accept this possible outcome.

    Again, congratulations to them.

    #26666
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    So am I. As a heart attack.

    Trump is the worst. It’s not gonna be pretty and we all know that.

    And it was avoidable. Completely avoidable.

    The people we expect to do the job, represent, didn’t. Still aren’t. Still trying to blame a grave, self-serving risk on people, when it’s the people they are working for.

    Makes no sense at all.

    What I don’t understand at all is how we somehow got this relationship inverted. Maybe I do, but it’s an aside, other than it is inverted and in a very unhealthy way.

    Framing this as the people’s fault is basically justifying extortion. Democrats had everything they needed to win this nicely. Told the people they needed to get lost!

    So they did and that’s whose fault?

    I don’t like that people stayed home and or protest voted. Sucks. But, I sure as hell am not going to blame them given the economics in play either.

    Nobody really wants to recognize that, and it’s a problem. Unless they do, we are gonna take more losses. Drumming up a ton of Trump fear and shame isn’t going to work all that well. The numbers don’t play out anymore.

    For that to work, more people need to be better off than not, and we are now in a scenario where a majority very seriously question that.

    The answer is to remove that question, take it their direction, show them a brighter future and connect that to a Democratic Party vote.

    That was the answer this election, and rather than do that, those people got told they were not needed and that moderate Republicans would carry the day, no worries. I’m absolutely not gonna forget that shit. Was a huge risk, and we lost big over it too.

    Would not have taken much. Just throwing people a bone would have worked. The numbers were that close, and even a bone was not on the table.

    Nobody is congratulating anyone. The Trumpers are stoked, Bacons of the world stoked. We know they are wrong as fuck, so it’s gonna hurt too.

    But the key thing in all of this, goes unsaid, and that is the Democratic Party economic strategy proved ineffective. Didn’t perform for labor and the middle class.

    Of course, the excuse is “those damn Republicans”, but now when we need to be resisting, actually presenting meaningful opposition, what happens?

    Obama put Social Security on the chopping block, as one example. No Democrat should ever have done that. People notice, and they voted accordingly.

    There is a lot of work to be done here, and some basic acceptance on how and why 1000 seats got lost is the first step in all of that. Not a message problem. It’s a performance and strategy problem.

    Way too many people just don’t believe. They didn’t see what they need to see. Call it result oriented democracy.

    Despite that shit, a nice opportunity was put on the table. We had huge numbers of people willing to go Dem again. What happened? They got told to get lost!

    That’s where the blame is. No joke.

    #26668
    paulwalker
    Participant

    Trump loses this one for now. A victory for the ACLU.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/2-iraqis-file-lawsuit-after-being-detained-in-ny-due-to-travel-ban/index.html

    my gawd, this President is clueless.

    #26670
    Langston
    Participant

    Only president for 8 days and the courts score a knockdown. This is a good omen.

    #26671
    edselehr
    Participant

    Missing, your basic argument is that the Democrats didn’t make their case to the people, and that’s why they lost.

    In an election with two reasonable choices (let’s put aside 3rd party choices for the moment) then this is a good argument to make, and you make a debatable point.

    But this election was between a reasonable choice and unmitigated shit. It’s always great to vote “for” something rather than “against” it, but when one choice is a bad as Trump it’s perfectly rational and reasonable – and I would say necessary – to cast an “against” vote.

    Godwin forgive me, but I’ll use a Hitler analogy. In WWII, you didn’t have to be for Churchill, or Roosevelt, or even for Stalin. It was sufficient to be against Hitler. Complaining that you would have acted against Hitler if only “Churchill or Stalin or FDR had courted my support better” is an incredibly lame position to take, and little solace when the Third Reich takes Europe.

    There will always be Trump voters – there are people in desperate straits in the country, and Trump is a very, very good snake oil salesman, and a pro at preying on such people. One might even argue that Hillary could never beat Trump in the economically disadvantaged Midwest, or the racist South, because only Trump would say or do anything to appeal to those aggrieved people – remember how Trump supporters consistently said about Trump that “he is saying what I’m thinking!”. That’s pandering, and If Hillary was a panderer, she was a rookie compared to Trump.

    Again, I’m referring to thoughtful liberals. If they didn’t vote for Hillary they own Trump. I don’t think that’s an outrageous observation.

    #26672
    skeptical
    Participant
    #26681
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    KSKD couldn’t be more wrong. In fact, he’s the poster boy for why we are where we are! If I don’t get 100% of my shit, then I’ll take 0% plus an ass fucking.

    Well guess what, it’s been one week. So much damage will occur because some of us couldn’t stomach Hillary because after all, they were both BAD candidates, right? Wrong!

    Part of me hopes those Bernie Bots take a sack slapping big time. Serves them right to ignore reality.

    #26688
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    >KSKD couldn’t be more wrong. In fact, he’s the poster boy for why we are where we are! If I don’t get 100% of my shit, then I’ll take 0% plus an ass fucking.

    You have this slightly wrong:

    If we don’t get some priority, then we will take 0% plus an ass fucking for everyone.

    That’s more the sentiment out there.

    It can be shortened into, “well fuck y’all then.” and be largely accurate.

    Just saying 😀 You might as well get it right. That’s progress.

    As for realities, a majority of people are struggling for no real reason other than greed. It wasn’t hard to recognize that and get the support needed.

    Or was it?

    Seems to me, it definitely was. Maintaining neo-economic ideas seems a lot more important than the well being of Americans. Failure to recognize that growing poverty is a prime driver too. I’ve come to see that very clearly over the last few weeks. It’s there. People do not want to talk about it. Denied firmly here, elsewhere.

    Those of us doing OK, are very angry and do not understand why this happened. More of the same is fine, why not? It’s good for everyone right? Those of us doing OK are a small fraction of the total working population.

    Those of us who aren’t doing well do understand, and are also angry over what happened. But, it wasn’t gonna be good for everyone. Those of us not doing OK are a majority of the population.

    Resolving it means recognizing human need and taking steps to improve on it. Simple as that.

    It’s a raw fight. Not going away, because the need isn’t going away. Once you internalize that it becomes a lot more clear.

    I’m tossing in with the people in need. A lot of them are our kids, grand kids. It’s not the same for them as it was for us, and that’s really starting to show now.

    So you know what you did Vitalogy?

    You did a “fuck you, I got mine, go get yours.” Most here followed that with fear and shame arguments bolstering charges of blame aimed right at people who are expected to just deal so some of us do well?

    Economically, that’s not very much different from the right. Not OK. Not what the left is about.

    Doesn’t compute from where I stand. Wrote pages here over years. Meant every word of it. I am a lefty all the way down. Have really solid, human reasons for it too.

    Apparently, not everyone here meant what they said.

    Now, I didn’t focus on economics so much early on, still believing we would make progress, or that progress was possible in the party strategy. It’s a focus now because that strategy is clearly lacking, and the need has grown, not reduced, and that’s been true over a fairly long period of time, hard to see.

    Like I said, be as angry as you want. It’s not gonna matter. I’m pretty damn secure in what I’ve seen and why. That level of need is completely unacceptable.

    Now, Chris linked a great piece here on the social levers used to advance painful economic norms in return for social regression. That’s all as valid as we have suggested it is over the years. Great piece. It is a contributor to where we are today.

    What you all need to understand is a similar effort is in play economically. That’s what the money in politics has done. That’s the center of this struggle, and why there is a basic and severe divide on the left.

    Current Democratic Party leadership is also trading a social position for painful economic norms.

    Factor that manipulation out, and we’ve a government favoring painful economic norms! That right there is the fight.

    Most of us are impacted by that, and arriving in that condition is why the game didn’t and won’t play out the same in the future, unless those numbers change, and or there is a priority on that need. It’s growing, not shrinking.

    Neither party currently has or is willing to express solid answers.

    A quick look at who was pro TPP and who was anti TPP will break the divide down for you. It’s not hard to see.

    Take that breakdown and overlay economic status, “doing well vs struggling” and it’s more clear still.

    I’m social left and economic left. Some of you are mixed, and some of you are social left only.

    And there is the problem expressed yet one more way.

    So yeah, realities. Bitch aren’t they?

    😀

    #26689
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    >take a sack slapping big time.

    Here is how it will go:

    1. We lose hard. Oh well, worth a swing at reform. Worth it.

    2. We don’t lose hard, reform happens, economic norms are improved. Also worth it.

    That should tell you all you need to know about anger, shame, blame, fear type arguments. They will be ineffective. Not one lick of that shit matters.

    Continue, if you feel better for having done it, but have no illusions about any of it being meaningful.

    Questions?

    😀

    #26708
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Ahh!

    But this election was between a reasonable choice and unmitigated shit. It’s always great to vote “for” something rather than “against” it, but when one choice is a bad as Trump it’s perfectly rational and reasonable – and I would say necessary – to cast an “against” vote.

    Yes. Correct.

    And that played out many times. Why didn’t it play out this year?

    Too many people did not see Clinton, Democrats in general, as “the reasonable choice.”

    Income inequality has taken a heavy toll. It’s a class problem today, no longer a niche, no longer a minority.

    You might as well ask why a majority of people, who are suffering, should continue that so a minority can continue to do OK.

    I wrote that here a pile of times. Too many people could not connect their Clinton / Democratic Party vote to a positive future! That is what happened.

    And as I put in the other thread to Vitalogy, there are two basic “realities” on this, and they center on economic class more than anything else:

    The view from the people doing OK, who believe they will be better off, is the view you and others are articulating here. Clinton was a reasonable choice, and denying that harmed everyone out of hand.

    The view from people not doing OK is very different. They do not see a positive future, they do not see Clinton / Democrats in that way, and see things getting worse, more of their peers falling out of economic security of various kinds. Pushing TPP, basically telling people to “shut up and get on the bus”, etc… reinforced that.

    To them, the choices were shit sandwich or shit sandwich with cheeze, neither choice made any real sense.

    It’s super important we understand that. It’s also entirely possible to come back, win, and keep this Trump bullshit in it’s minimum worst case too, but to do that, we must recognize that way too many Americans do not and continue to not see Clinton / Democrats, maybe I’ll just say a continuing of Obama as a future that benefits them.

    Further, we can ignore that and hope the ugly Trump is gonna dump on us is enough to force compliance and Dem wins. I’m frankly not very encouraged as that path won’t have real momentum and excitement behind it. It’s a negative politics, and more of a resigned choice than anything else.

    But, it could go that way, and from what I can tell, that is the dominant “shock doctrine” type approach being taken right now. Trump, trump, trump, oh holy fuck, TRUMP!

    The roots of that are fear, shame, blame. Not better politics, not pro-labor and middle class.

    If enough of us recognize what happened, and we take it left, that can be a positive politics, have momentum, and that’s the far better path, IMHO.

    #26709
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    And to be clear, my dog in this fight is big wins for the left, Democrats.

    I do not condone what happened, but I do understand it and how important it is we address it.

    Democrats are not working from a strong position. Indie votes are 40 percent now.

    Edit: Thought about this some

    Missing, your basic argument is that the Democrats didn’t make their case to the people, and that’s why they lost.

    It’s not just a messaging problem. Need to be clear on that. It’s a priority problem. Democrats did not recognize what it takes from a policy standpoint to form the possible, winning coalition. People were dictated to, or told they don’t matter, or their interests don’t matter, when they very clearly do.

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