October 11, 2019 at 7:03 pm #42876
The subtitle of the piece is “Americans might soon wish they just waited to vote their way out of the Trump era.”
As I said above, Democrats really didn’t have a choice about impeachment anymore. Taibbi’s presumption is that if Democrats hadn’t moved to impeach Trump, they could just have defeated him in the 2020 election – never mind that he could well have just continued rigging the next election as he was preceding to do. At least now Trump is on the defensive.
The Democratic base would have revolting if the House hadn’t moved toward impeachment after this clear lawbreaking. Who knows what Trump might have done beyond this if the Democrats made it clear they weren’t going to try to stop him.October 12, 2019 at 11:55 am #42880
Taibbi is also saying Dems may not win at all, and an impeach plan isn’t a slam dunk, largely because the Dems themselves have corruption going on.
Trump could decide to air that dirty laundry leaving quite the mess.
Ever wonder about Pelosi’s reluctance, which Trump forced by self-publishing? And her narrow focus of inquiry?
That is why.
And remember, she responded to a published crime, which I documented here. This isn’t like Dems were looking to actually go to bat against Trump. More like manage. Pelosi got forced.
From my point of view Trump was on the defensive the moment he won the office. Never stopped campaigning. He’s not in the club, breaks long established protocols, etc… Thing is, those he’s on the defense from actually aren’t all that clean themselves.
Bear in mind a fair percentage of the Dem base, along with some large slice of indies are already in revolt over malfeasance. Both parties. That’s not a statement of equality. The GOP is worse, but neither party is actually interested in improving things for ordinary people, which is what this entire affair is supposed to be about. There is an awful lot of dirty laundry that could get exposed here.
Matt isn’t wrong, given Dems actually do embrace a different model of legitimacy. But, it’s clear they won’t.
There are actually three competing models of legitimacy in play, with progressives seeking to acquire, consolidate and grow power and emerge.
There is what Trump will do, could have done, etc…
There is also what needs to be done, and the Dem response on all of this is tepid on that front, largely defensive in nature, not so much proactive.
Like I said, not as cut and dried as the neat little package on cable news would have it be.
In any case, I am a fan of Taibbi. Lucid, clear and relevant as always. When the likes of Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, et al offer more lucid political commentary than the major networks do, it’s sad. Been that way for a long time now.October 12, 2019 at 12:58 pm #42881
Missing: “Taibbi is also saying Dems may not win at all, and an impeach plan isn’t a slam dunk, largely because the Dems themselves have corruption going on.”
No, probably not the reason – but for people who believe “both parties are equally corrupt, we need someone pure like Bernie Sanders,” that no doubt is an appealing explanation.
“Trump could decide to air that dirty laundry leaving quite the mess.”
And he hasn’t already because – ?
“Ever wonder about Pelosi’s reluctance, which Trump forced by self-publishing? And her narrow focus of inquiry?
That is why.”
I guess it could be because Pelosi is controlled by aliens from Jupiter, too. But like you, I would be only speculating without any sort of evidence.October 12, 2019 at 3:33 pm #42883
Sanders has never, nor will make a personal purity or virtue argument.
Warren does, and has by the way. Do you see that going well for her? So far, she has been questioned on pretty much all virtue signals she has sent out. Her style of politicking requires those arguments too.
For what it’s worth, most of you have made those arguments about yourselves, implying somehow that I am or have lost or some other negative thing. It’s notable, also won’t go any better for you than it does Warren, but I digress.
Those things are not necessary.
In my post above, you will find these words: “That’s not a statement of equality.” I put them there in anticipation of your comment Andrew.
Fact is, the party house is not clean. Has not been for quite some time now. The GOP party house is even worse!
Sanders is making a legitimacy argument. So am I. All of us are, and that centers on big money in politics and media working against the best economic interests of most Americans.
Sanders does not make self virtue arguments because his politicking does not require them.
Sanders isn’t saying he’s more pure, more virtuous than the others. He is offering up the strongest ideas and asking others to join the effort behind them.
Pelosi is about taking very large amounts of money. While doing that is legal, it’s not doing most Americans any favors. Legal corruption and grift are part of the discussion.
Not a clean house at all.October 12, 2019 at 7:45 pm #42884
And again, the point we are all making, Sanders on down, isn’t a purity or virtue type thing. It’s not even a negative thing, technically.
(though plenty, including myself will absolutely call out our party, the Dem party, for it’s own malfeasance that is costing all of us a lot more than necessary.)
It’s a do right by the people, win big, give Trump a nice solid boot in the ass, and set the stage for a long overdue cleanup, together.
That argument is being presented for three reasons:
1. It has to be a do it together argument as there is no other legitimate source of power that is domestic, and that has standing to do it for us. Begging for one is sedition and or treason, depending. As it should be. So, this is on the people impacted.
And that is a subtle point. You, most of us here, aren’t really all that impacted on the economic front. I can make an argument that I was impacted due to health care, but overall that’s not where I’m going with this. We are, for the most part, running OK. There may be exceptions here, but I don’t know them.
Naturally, that makes all of this unpleasant. Why start shit, why talk down the party that has done us well?
Fair questions. Notice I’ve never once dismissed them. Legit.
Back when there was not a majority of us impacted, this kind of argument, idea, campaign, style of politicking wouldn’t work well. Not enough people motivated to get after it.
But today? It’s a clear majority. No brainer.
2. The root of the big problems we face is money in politics. No getting around that. And delaying it could make some sense, but in the climate change, health care senses? Nope. Both have crossed over into known unacceptable, known unnecessary problems as seen by enough people to matter. Health care, in particular, unifies every demo, every political persuasion.
3. Neither party appears willing and or able to get after these things themselves. Let’s face it, the money is really good. Can’t necessarily blame them, but that also does the majority impacted people no good now does it?
Lesser evil is a completely rational position to take. Given Trump and what we would have seen with Clinton? I think she would have been aggressive on wars, probably would not have done such a bang up job with tax cuts, etc… On the social front, we would not be seeing anywhere near the regression we are now, and I could go on.
But, what we would not have seen?
That’s why the campaign exists. We would not have seen meaningful reforms aimed right at the majority of people struggling and impacted by the last decades of economic progress, and we would not have seen that, because the money in politics is there to prevent that, in essence getting returns for those who spend it.
By staying within the old political frame, we can choose between major league pain, hello Trump. He’s handing it out fairly quickly. Could give two shits too.
Or, we can choose that more stately decline we’ve seen in play before, with pockets of help here and there for those suffering the worst.
Now, in this conflicting visions of legitimacy Taibbi wrote about, the Dems have a basic problem, and that is way too many people do not want a return to the politics that got us here.
Can’t really blame them either, and so here we are.
Making virtue arguments in this context makes absolutely no sense. Given party performance, Dems are better than the GOP, but neither is actually going to come close to anything resembling a real, public good, with both eroding the established public good at various rates on a good day.
By framing it all this way, it’s not important that anyone be pure, virtuous. (A mistake Warren hopefully learns quick before her ongoing oversells on her own person get her into real trouble) Many people aren’t either. Ordinary people are all over the map, obviously.
No, it’s about ideas. The only real debate being whether getting behind stronger ones than the ones on the table right no makes any sense.
Warren, by the way, is putting weaker ones out there and compensating by upselling her own virtue, indirectly trading on the “it’s time for a woman President” identity politics playing out there today.
The other advantage of this framing, the why behind the politicking, not taking big money, and getting millions involved, is cultivating basic legitimacy by default. There are only a few ways to accumulate political power, and legitimacy is one of the big ones, and of particular importance here in the US.
All of that, by the way, is precisely why the more or less non stop attempts to somehow denigrate me in various ways are basically useless. I know better guys.
You can see the extremes of this in the Biden campaign, which is basically, “Trump is a bad guy” LOL Not good enough today, because the house Biden comes from isn’t clean either.
Nobody up there, except for Sanders, is inviting people to clean the house with any real credence. And he’s doing that because the house is dirty, and it’s on us to clean it up, or live with the mess, simple as that.
While I watch various people make claims of purity, or virtue, I just sort of laugh. Not until we can talk about the money and the impact it has.
And at least several of you just don’t care too. (which is precisely why I care about your concerns exactly as much as you do mine)
No joke.October 15, 2019 at 8:51 pm #42891VitalogyParticipant
No, the joke is you and your 10,000 word essay of garbage.
I care most about beating Trump above all else.
At this point I still think Biden in the best bet to win, but if I had to do ranked voting, I’d support Mayor Pete and then Biden.
As a household that relies on health insurance through my job for my family I’m not wiling to go along with the elimination of private insurance in favor of Medicare for all.October 15, 2019 at 10:28 pm #42892
Yeah, and that means you don’t care about your fellow Americans. Selfish.
Well, the majority disagrees with you on private insurance. Just know that’s a litmus test out there in the millions, and that number is growing rapidly. You can thank US, the Berners, and the Nurses Union for that work. It’s great work, and a primary pillar of the campaign volunteer and fundraising efforts too.
Even the bigots need to see the doctor.
Whoever gets the nom had better damn well mean it on Medicare For All, or they are going to lose. That’s no joke.
We could frame that M4A or Trump, and it won’t be all that far off. Just something to think about. Most of the nation has it worse than you do. Most of the nation is going to be needed to defeat Trump.
M4A = litmus test. Doesn’t look good, does it? Nope.
Then there is the fact that the best, lowest risk, high impact way to defeat Trump is to take great policy right to the people in a convincing way. You oppose that. So, really, you don’t want to defeat Trump no matter what.
That is the selfish part.
Tonight, Warren did well, Sanders started to draw the contrast lines he needed to draw to differentiate from Warren, and showed some fight, long overdue. Will be interesting to see how the dynamics between those two play out. Sanders got ignored, which shows CNN bias loud and clear. Sanders will take that to the people per usual. No worries.
Biden just sunk his ship tonight. Pathetic. We are deffo post peak Biden. He’s totally cooked! Harris is there with him, but for different reasons. She’s bleeding off support rapidly, and a lot of those are going to Warren.
Yang did very well and CNN totally setup a nice block of time for him to talk too. He’s got more support than anyone expected. He got a CNN promo.
Brooker? Present, check. Next.
Tulsi got cut off a lot. She’s right on foreign policy, does not have enough other support to make traction. Took swings at others. Frankly, she’s being a good solder progressive. Dished a knockout punch to Harris last time. Landed a couple on Warren. Love it. More please.
Klobuchar and Pete?
Well, Amy setup her GOP coming out party just fine. It will go well and she will be welcome. She’s very seriously out of touch. Delivers turds, looks smug.
Pete is floundering. I do not expect him to make much progress. We’ve seen peak pete.October 15, 2019 at 10:45 pm #42893
Short version, because you know…
I care about defeating Trump exactly as much as you care about Medicare for All.
Upside: There is time for us to understand one another better, do the right things.October 15, 2019 at 10:54 pm #42894
Missing: “Well, Amy setup her GOP coming out party just fine. It will go well and she will be welcome. She’s very seriously out of touch. Delivers turds, looks smug.”
Klobuchar is very seriously out of touch…with the loony left. To everyone else, she looked pretty smart and sensible. She got great reviews from her debate performance from all sides. May not be enough to get into serious contention for the nomination, though. Too bad – she would make it extremely difficult for Trump to win Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania again, not to mention Iowa and Ohio. As Tim Ryan said in an earlier debate, Democrats need to become the party of the middle of the country again. Warren and Sanders are not the ones to do that – they on the contrary are probably the worst thing we could do to re-gain the mid-west states.October 15, 2019 at 11:17 pm #42895
Amy might as well run Republican.
The middle is going to lose to Trump. Bank on it.October 15, 2019 at 11:36 pm #42896
Yes, and I’m sure, to you, millions of us who voted for Obama and for all other Democrats are “Republicans” too – anyone who isn’t on the loony left must be a Republican I guess.October 16, 2019 at 12:09 am #42897
There is nothing loony going on at all. You can do much better.October 16, 2019 at 12:25 am #42898
You’re part of a fringe left movement. Klobuchar, Biden, Buttigieg, etc. represent the viewpoints of far more people than Sanders and Warren do. You’re welcome to have whatever political viewpoints you wish, but you’re deluding yourself into thinking they are mainstream points of view. They aren’t.October 16, 2019 at 12:34 am #42899
Tell me another one.
Nothing fringe about it. I know better. You can do better. Pity you don’t.
Call it what you want, but the way to defeat Trump runs through it.
I have made mine. Easy call. They aren’t wrong. Best policy.
What does defeat Trump no matter what really mean?
That is the question. Vitalogy already qualified “no matter what” into, “as long as I am happy”, and you?October 16, 2019 at 4:56 pm #42903VitalogyParticipant
This is why Medicare for all is unattainable.
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