Trump bumbles first international crisis

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This topic contains 35 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  LurkingGrendel 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)
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  • #31130

    Amus
    Participant

    please stow your over-the-top condescension, rudeness, incivility, abusiveness, and very bad manners in an appropriately dark cavity in your body. I was just stating an opinion.

    Why do you think you deserve anything more?

    You’ve shown time and time again you have no interest in any kind of intellectual conversation.

    What’s left?

    #31131

    radiogeek
    Participant

    I detest Trump. However there are no good endings for the mess in Korea.

    Governments from both parties have done what they can to delay, delay, delay the inevitable conflict. In fact, since we’re still at war with N Korea it’s a conflict that has had a very long truce but is going to reignite soon.

    If this does start, the civilians (and troops) are the ones who will get screwed. N Korea as collateral damage for any strikes to take out offensive missile facilities, and Seoul as a target of hundreds of thousands of rockets and shells. And our troops caught in the middle.

    We can’t prevent N Korea from continuing to be a nuclear power without destroying their reactors and other nuclear facilities. The fallout would endanger their civilians, S Korea, China, Japan … and won’t happen. That is why the agreement with Iran to disable their nuclear weapons reactors and allow inspectors full access was such an important milestone of the Obama years. It’s a damned shame that the nuclear oversight of N Korea ended.

    At some point either covert actions to decapitate the regime, or a very intense non nuclear bombing campaign to deny N Korea it’s delivery capacity will be necessary. Previous governments have been able to delay the lousy choice of armed conflict, but I wouldn’t rule out Trump having a sugar high and deciding he’s going to go do it.

    He’ll roll the dice, people will die, and it will take decades to decide in retrospect if this moment was idiotic or long overdue. As a nation, we’ve justified the horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by saying hundreds of thousands died so other millions could live by avoiding an invasion of Japan. We cling to these narratives so we can get on with living our lives without being consumed by guilt.

    #31133

    LurkingGrendel
    Participant

    When you begin answering direct questions truthfully and without deflection and obfuscation, begin to address the towering hypocrisy of your many logically indefensible and utterly irrational opinions, and make some basic attempt to communicating in a manner that’s not with willful intent both offensive and trolling, perhaps you’ll engender a different form of response.

    Civility is beside the point. You’re a lying and hypocritical sack of shit regardless of how polite or impolite the framing. You rarely if ever directly answer a point of query in an honest manner.

    True to form, you’ve ignored every instance in this thread. Ex:

    -If President Obama, or any Democrat for that matter, thoughtlessly and carelessly and dangerously (not to mention childishly inarticulately) threatened nuclear war you’d be beside yourself with outraged indignation. And rightfully so, I might add. Not so with Donald Trump. Why?

    -How does escalating a war of words with a foreign adversary lead to a nonviolent solution?

    -How does bullying, threatening, or insulting an adversary lead towards their being willing to accept a diplomatic or otherwise negotiated solution?

    -How, exactly, is a potential threat equitable to that of a likely threat? I.e. there’s no credible intelligence now, nor has there even been, that North Korea intends to enact any kind of pre-emptive military action against The United States. Our own intelligence agencies believe their attempt to become a nuclear power is entirely based on deterrance. Why does Donald Trump, you, or any of his political supporters believe otherwise and what evidence can you offer to support that viewpoint?

    -What, exactly, could any previous U.S. President have done to prevent a foreign nation intent upon developing their own nuclear program from doing so? Note: other than starting a war, it means long, difficult, complicated, diplomatic work. There are no simple solutions. If you feel otherwise, detail exactly how that’s the case.

    -Do you believe a nonviolent solution should not be sought? Why? And in detail, explain why the massive civilian casualties that would be engendered from such a decision is morally and ethically acceptable?

    -Is cheerleading any kind of military conduct in alignment with basic human decency, or any form of Christianity? If so, how and why?

    -In the event of a military engagement, what becomes of Seoul, South Korea? Japan? China? What about the massive humanitarian crisis that would result on the peninsula from such actions? How do we plan on dealing with the aftermath? Are you prepared to accept the tax burden? Are you prepared to send tens of thousands of U.S. ground troops? Do we hold no moral or financial obligations to the victims of our actions?

    -What do you think China and Russia would think about our starting a war with North Korea? Let me repeat that. The United States, by choice, starting a war on the Asian continent. Up to and including the usage of nuclear weapons. Do you honestly believe that couldn’t escalate into something that might kill you and your entire family and even lead to the complete extinction of the human race? It’s not crazy to posit. It could happen.

    You deserve every bit of scornful contempt that comes your way. You earned it.

    I think you’re a complete fucking asshole. It’s a widely held opinion you do nothing to attempt to disprove. You delight in trolling for trolling sakes. It’s assholery of the first order. You’re a fake Christian who blithely advocates positions that would result in suffering and death of others. But it doesn’t affect you directly, so it’s a-ok, right slick?

    You can attempt to quit being a galactic level douche canoe and you’ll likely find a tonal change. Or, not. In which case, go fuck yourself.

    #31134

    Thanks for keeping the door open.

    I’ll try this one for starters:

    -If President Obama, or any Democrat for that matter, thoughtlessly and carelessly and dangerously (not to mention childishly inarticulately) threatened nuclear war you’d be beside yourself with outraged indignation. And rightfully so, I might add. Not so with Donald Trump. Why?

    Loaded question. You’ve buried premises that I don’t accept and have not been proved. I’m not convinced that what Trump threatened was “careless, dangerous, etc. etc.” I think under similar circumstances I would have applauded Obama having said something similar (after I picked my jaw off the floor).

    Donald will do things his way. He’s a negotiator and I trust his instincts. I do not believe he intends to nuke anyone. I would not want that, and I’m not a “fake Christian,” though you’re more than welcome to post your definition of a “real Christian,” to which I will happily respond, as I enjoy discussions and debates about religion much more than those about politics.

    Your invitation to a possible “tonal change” if my posting behavior changes to suit your standards, followed by a “go f*ck yourself,” slightly rings of disingenuousness, besides that fact that there is zero excuse for your abusiveness, regardless of what I or anyone posts. Not that I’m asking for you to change. I’m just pointing it out.

    #31137

    Andrew
    Participant

    Bacon sez: “Donald will do things his way. He’s a negotiator and I trust his instincts.”

    And how has that worked out so far in his presidency? What has that amazing negotiator managed to get through Congress?

    #31138

    paulwalker
    Participant

    As a prelude, why can’t we offer opinions on here without insulting others? It really does no good. I appreciate Dan is open to all discussion, and the rules are lax, but really folks, can’t we be a bit more civil? Name calling doesn’t produce anything positive. I also understand that emotions tend to run high at times, but all of us can step back at times.

    So as for the current topic, Trump doesn’t understand his place in the world. He believes he is doing fine. Delusions of grandeur without a doubt. He is an egomaniac and can’t control himself. Perhaps the last person that should be in control of the U.S. military and/or judgement of making international world decisions. We are living in dangerous times, and it is because we have elected someone who does not have the skills to perform the office of the President Of The United States.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  paulwalker.
    #31140

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    Narcissistic at best, drumpf is a preppie from New York that has never lived up to his own image of himself. That’s where any mania has it’s roots. At worst we may have the most corrupt administration ever in history.

    #31144

    radiogeek
    Participant

    At worst we may have the most corrupt administration ever in history.

    No. At best we may have the most corrupt administration ever in history. Right now we’re discussing WWIII.

    Regarding the long exchanges earlier, if Obama had threatened war with N Korea, the Republicans would have all risen in chorus to call him a chicken hawk. The rhetoric against the Iran deal from the Republican Party was shameful.

    #31146

    Alan Craig
    Participant

    Several movies come to mind as we are forced to digest this detritus: Wag The Dog, The Mouse That Roared & Dr. Strangelove. As my pop used to remind us, “Laugh or you’ll cry.”

    #31147

    LurkingGrendel
    Participant

    @ Paul.

    Hasn’t that question been asked and answered any number of times? The scorn and ridicule heaped upon Bacon is entirely of his own creation. Ostensibly, this is a forum for discussion. How do you deal with someone, anyone, that has close to zero interest in actual discussion? Posting unsupportable opinions, lying, deflecting, obfuscating, willful trolling, and the like, all while generally refusing to answer a direct question or offer any kind of supportive reasoning and detail for a position they have taken, is by definition going to create conflict. He rarely if ever makes a sincere attempt to convince anyone his opinions are correct; and said opinions are often utterly irrational, factually unsupportable, and entirely hypocritical. Those are not even debatable criticisms; they’re easily documentable. In turn, he clearly has no interest at all in being open to hearing or being swayed to a different point of view. By contrast, I would love to be wrong about any number of things. I hoped I was wrong about Trump on a whole host of issues and openly said so. By all means, using objective facts, logic, and rationality, please convince me how I’m in error about an opinion or viewpoint.

    Do you, or does anyone here, believe Bacon believes the same? I have utter contempt for such abject, intellectual dishonesty. In life, and here on-line, you often get the level of respect you’ve earned or deserve.

    @ Bacon,

    Again, you didn’t even make an honest attempt at answering those questions. And, again, you offer no supportive detail of any kind to explain how and why you’ve arrived at any conclusion you proffer.

    Stating he’s (Trump) a good negotiator and that you trust is instincts are sentiments utterly unhinged from objective reality. I mean, good for you, but there’s no proof of any kind that’s accurate. To date, his time in office has been a cavalcade of embarrassing failures. As for your rejecting the premise, there’s a shock. Never mind that there’s literally no other remotely honest way to interpret Donald’s mouth diarrhea has anything other than having threatened the usage of nuclear weapons. Oh, and never mind that Donald Trump himself then followed up a few hours later by tweeting out a lie that underscores that his threat was exactly what it sounded like.

    The Donald tweeted: “My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal. It is stronger and more powerful than ever before”.

    I’m not going to bother getting into it as you have demonstrated time and again you care nothing at all for fact, but let it suffice to say that tweet is a lie. And, a lie that reinforces the contention that his babbling about fire and fury and the like directed at North Korea was in point of fact an unhinged rant utilizing nuclear weaponry as a threat.

    That’s dangerous. Very smart people from both sides of the aisle agree with that statement. It’s not partisan. Trump is behaving like a lunatic.

    Ignore a whole host of very direct and specific questions, and then answer one of them selectively and in a typically trollish and doofus manner. True to form, sir.

    That’s why I and many others think you’re a fucking asshole.

    I trust the adults in the room will recover from their sudden onslaught of vapors at such a churlish usage of language.

    #31161

    Dan Packard
    Keymaster

    Hey Lurking Grendel,

    It’s easy to hold someone in contempt that might have different ideas than you. But then flowering your rational and usually well reasoned thoughts with such vile hatred towards someone just completely collapses all the points you make.

    Please refrain from the childish name calling. It doesn’t follow the spirit of enlightened discourse that we are trying to promote here. Thanks.

    LurkingGrendel said:

    You can attempt to quit being a galactic level douche canoe and you’ll likely find a tonal change. Or, not. In which case, go fuck yourself.

    #31195

    LurkingGrendel
    Participant

    I take your point, though candidly somewhat by necessity. LOL.

    While I don’t wholly agree with your perspective, it’s your forum and as such I’ll attempt to adhere to the guidelines you’ve outlined. You’re well within your rights in requesting such and I apologize for the disruption.

    With respect though, Dan, there’s not a lot of enlightened discourse coming from certain parties. I.e. It’s not being promoted very effectively. The name calling and profanity is often directly engendered by the lying, trolling, and lack of honest responsiveness from other members of the forum.

    Those are not opinions in a vacuum. They’re all fact based and can easily cited.

    Perhaps it’s time to sign off, entirely. I value critical discussion, but it’s impossible to have one with individuals unwilling or incapable of agreeing upon a commonly held set of objective facts.

    My opinions are supportable and I welcome challenge to them. The inverse cannot be said of several people here who truly do, lurk about.

    I’ll think upon it some more.

    Thank you, Dan.

    #31201

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    The root of the problem is bacon. After all, Dan, you’ve thrown his ass off this board 7 times in the past for his forum behavior of lies, insults towards women, refusal to answer questions, lack of integrity in acknowledging what he has posted in the past . . . the list is endless. Now it appears you are condoning this type of trolling which has been the cause of many to leave actively contributing here. You wrote in the past that this turd who has graced the forum under too many aliases to recall was counterproductive to the forum function. Get rid of bacon (aka fair and balanced, The Wrath of Con, Libby, jerry1949 and several more I can’ recall) and no one will miss him. His behavior is absolutely outrageous and I’m perplexed you would call out anyone whom like many of us have grown so frustrated with his behavior that we often tell him to fuck off. Bacon is not contributing a conservative viewpoint. He’s just trolling to incite rage and generate tumult.

    #31203

    The reason I was banned so many times was because I would get fed up with the bullying and abuse, engage the bullies and abusers, and then a ruckus would ensue, and I would be blamed for it, and then I was out.

    But I don’t play your game anymore Andy, and you can whine all you want but guys like you are the reason this board has diminished to almost nothing. You use your views as an excuse to use others as punching bags, and decent people don’t like it and don’t stick around.

    Anyone with half a brain and any sense of fairness can read this thread and see that I made a few comments that would not be called “trolling” anywhere else and were met with responses that were vicious and demeaning that would not be tolerated or excused on any other board.

    I expect you’ll work behind the scenes to have me thrown out again, Andy, and maybe you’ll win again, and if you do, this is my last iteration here. I’ve got better things to do, and I don’t care, and you can have your shrinking board where a couple of you are left and you all think alike. Maybe it will end up being just you, and I don’t think you’ll even notice or care.

    I make very few comments and politics really isn’t my thing, but I like to share my opinions and I like to say my peace when I feel my side is being unfairly criticizes. So what? If you don’t like my posts just ignore them instead of making a federal case about them.

    Thank you Dan.

    #31207

    skeptical
    Participant

    I’m sorry, is someone that got banned 7 times whining about something?

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