Trump asks Ukrainian president to help Giuliani w/ investigation of Biden's son

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This topic contains 69 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Andy Brown 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 70 total)
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  • #42621

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    No legal basis?
    Dream on, child.
    Read the complaint instead of the spin.
    Pence may be dragged in, too.
    President Pelosi.

    #42622

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    “No one could have predicted that the lifelong failure-monkey who ran six casinos into the ground and ran an airline into the ground and ran a football league into the ground and ran a magazine into the ground would eventually run his presidency straight into the fucking ground.” ~ Jeff Tiedrich https://bit.ly/2nE01iJ

    #42624

    Andrew
    Participant

    texter: “My bet is that Trump will not be impeached. It’s bluster. They don’t have the courage (or any legal basis) to follow through with it.”

    As Gerald Ford once said: the grounds for impeachment are whatever the House says they are. There is no “legal basis” in the Constitution for impeachment. They can vote to impeach Trump because his name has only one syllable if they choose, if they decide that constitutes “high crimes and misdemeanors.” It’s not a court proceeding; it’s a political act.

    The only question is – how will the people react? We know the low information dim bulbs on the right will support Trump no matter what, just like they did Nixon. But how will the real Americans react? If a majority of them support an impeachment, that’s all the political cover the House Democrats need – dim bulbs be damned.

    An unbiased observer would note that there has been a massive shift toward impeachment in the Democratic Congress in the last week since this story broke. The dimbulbs will deny anything has changed, that all Democrats in the House have always wanted Trump impeached at any cost, but that is simply false.

    #42625

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    “The only question is – how will the people react?”

    So far (and admittedly it’s not been long enough for enough polling to have taken place) there has been a distinct increase in public support for impeachment.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/26/poll-support-impeachment-trump-1515012

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/impeachment-ukraine-trump-poll_n_5d8d0f12e4b0019647a5811f

    #42626

    Andrew
    Participant

    Andy: “So far (and admittedly it’s not been long enough for enough polling to have taken place) there has been a distinct increase in public support for impeachment.”

    It’s only been a week. I would expect it to go up.

    However, I’m wondering if the House Democrats should drag this out too long. You know the Republican propagandists will be out in force over the next few months, pounding on this issue over and over again, and it can have an effect. I think the Democrats should not wait too long but also not rush ahead too quickly. Wouldn’t want to see them drag this out til say January – but I’d guess that’s how it will play out.

    #42627

    Andy Brown
    Participant

    I agree. The best strategy for getting rid of drumpf at this point is to semi-chill and let him continue to self destruct, which he is already doing a splendid job of. Right now, especially. Let it play out at normal speed (which is just a bit slower than real time). The more time the story gets, the faster it will execute. The impeachment process will consume more time than we think, probably, what with all the back and forth in committee and then again on the floor. If it gets to the Senate by early next year, it will continue to dominate the daily news and drag out for at least another 90 days.

    Much to the chagrin of our in house temporary leper, the complaint drags together many tentacles in the overall malfeasant operation of the drumpf administration beyond the instant screw up. So it just isn’t going to play out too fast, which is probably a good thing. With the kick the can budget extension being passed, that crisis doesn’t return until November 22. Between now and then, the discussion over the “discovery” portion of this debacle will make Republicans just plain look bad. I can’t fathom a spin to recover what they are now going to lose . . . support! Oh, they’ll try, but those impeachment polls will erode much of that middle ground.

    #42628

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Since people appear to be taking a bit of a break calling me unhinged, and worse, perhaps it’s a good time to sort this discussion out some. 😀 You all know how I much prefer original documents. Links provided, where I can link to them.

    Regarding a legal basis for impeachment to proceed, this is what Trump published:

    https://www.axios.com/transcript-ukraine-trump-call-joe-biden-78da8285-6157-4d6a-aa01-7430323e3c09.html

    Page 3

    Trump: I would like you to do us a favor

    […]

    The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.

    Now, the published (lol, hilarious it went to Dems too) talking point is: no quid pro pro

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/gop-impeachment-messaging-1511557

    Now, here is the ugly part:

    It does not matter whether there was quid pro pro, other than that being a SECOND crime. The fact is, Trump published what is necessary to find he committed the FIRST CRIME, in the scope of this discussion.

    It’s illegal to solicit this kind of thing from foreign leaders. That’s the crime, and Trump totally did that, and published it! (amazing)

    The talking point is about AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CRIME! It’s a distraction from THE CRIME TRUMP TOLD US HE DID.

    Here is the law:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

    52 U.S. Code § 30121.Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

    (a)Prohibition It shall be unlawful for—

    […]

    (2)a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/300.2

    11 CFR § 300.2 – Definitions.

    […]

    (m)To solicit. For the purposes of part 300, to solicit means to ask, request, or recommend, explicitly or implicitly, that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation may be made directly or indirectly. The context includes the conduct of persons involved in the communication. A solicitation does not include mere statements of political support or mere guidance as to the applicability of a particular law or regulation.

    He’s admitted himself to be guilty as fuck.

    Here is a solid rundown, supporting piece: https://www.justsecurity.org/66277/the-quid-is-a-crime-no-need-to-prove-pro-quo-in-ukrainegate/

    That makes for an excellent basis.

    The question now is whether Democrats are truly interested in the rule of law. The extreme reluctance demonstrated by Pelosi stinks. (a fine example of tepid, bull shit party leadership many Dems and Progressives would love to reform, like yesterday) I do not really understand why Pelosi defined such a narrow scope. Trump has a lot of admissions to account for, as well as business to account for.

    But! She’s doing SOMETHING. I’ll take it.

    I think Trump will resign, rather than be found guilty. He’s going to see there is an out for him by doing that, and he will take it, and likely in the process, get a couple more associates and staff into prison. (working for Trump = you deserve what you get)

    It could very well be, “Hello President Pence” in 2020.

    #42629

    texter
    Spectator

    He was asking for justice and not for a favor, regardless of whether such justice would help him or not is irrelevant.

    Biden shut down a prosecutor who was going after his son (who had a very cushy deal courtesy of pop and his position). If this is true, then Biden is the crook, and it’s not a crime to get information on a crook or alleged crooked behavior by one of the most powerful people in our country (at the time).

    TRUMP:

    Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that’s really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what’s happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.

    So where is the crime in this?

    And of course Biden skates?

    #42630

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    You didn’t go read the law. I suggest you do. I linked it for you, easy peasy.

    Proceed through the definitions portion. That will help you considerably.

    What you want or think the words mean is not what the words actually do mean. Conveniently, we include those official definitions in the law, so statements like the one you just made are tossed out immediately as being uninformed.

    It’s all there.

    Secondly, that you just argued he did ask, and did ask for something, is essentially arguing against yourself. Just FYI. You should reconsider doing that.

    It’s the ASK that is illegal. It’s not what he got, or even whether the other party agreed or did anything. Those are all separate matters, identified nicely in the Federal Code I linked.

    #42631

    texter
    Spectator

    Trump is not guilty of anything. Trump will not resign. Trump will be reelected (handily).

    #42632

    texter
    Spectator

    You’re projecting what you believe or want to believe are intentions behind the words.

    Really–so what if Trump thought it was horrible what Biden did and wants them to look into it?

    #42633

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    We don’t ask other foreign powers to get into our domestic politics –our business. Doing that is against the law.

    Trump did that.

    Oh, and what is annoying as all get out is the fact that Pelosi may well have let this one pass too, but for Trump actually publishing it. (dumbass)

    She has to proceed with Impeachment investigations now, or she herself could get called into question as to whether she’s actually executing the duties of her own office.

    Meaning, when we get right down to the brass tacks, Trump forced Pelosi to open investigations, or risk having to begin answering a lot of ugly questions herself.

    #42634

    bookemdono
    Participant

    The only place the Biden shutting down the prosecutor story is true is among rightwing conspiracy theorists. Its been dismissed as untrue yet it is continually brought up as fact that he intervened on his son’s behalf.

    He explicitly said “I’d like you do a favor” or did you skip that part because it did not fit your narrative?

    #42635

    bookemdono
    Participant

    Can any trump supporter honestly say that if Hillary was president and it was learned that she had asked a foreign leader to look into trump’s dealing in their country and hid the transcript in a private server the right wouldn’t have list their minds?

    #42637

    nosignalallnoise
    Participant

    I like dogs.

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