Trump asks Ukrainian president to help Giuliani w/ investigation of Biden's son forums forums Politics and other things Trump asks Ukrainian president to help Giuliani w/ investigation of Biden's son

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    Reporter in Iowa: Biden, make your case to be POTUS

    Biden: I am not gonna do that

    What do you all think? Winner?



    So if Biden wins the nomination you will shit on him and vote Trump?

    Got it.


    Biden is too old. We need a young guy like Bernie Sanders instead.


    That is the wrong question.

    Biden just shit on himself. Definitely gave one of the top, wrong answers. Not good.

    The right questions are:

    Who is excited to vote Biden?

    Who will hold their nose and vote Biden?

    Who won’t and why?

    What does it take to get those votes and does Biden have it, and will Biden do it?

    Biden does not excite the youth at all. He does not excite unlikely voters at all.

    I am in a State where it does not matter much what I do. Dems are doing OK enough here. Low risk.

    Ask those questions in the rust belt, midwest, etc… and the answers change.

    He said that in Iowa!

    He himself just took a lot of potential voters off the table. Nobody made him do that either.

    Let me just say it now, Biden didn’t do the work. He just failed to garner votes. He just increased both the cost of election (becausethat work still needs to be done), and the risk of the election.

    That is not on me, or the people. That was all Joe. Nobody else.

    I am now a lot more confident I will not be called on to answer your question. And if I am?

    It does not matter much, due to Dems in this State doing the work consistently.

    It matters a lot where Dems have not done the work, and that makes Biden a poor nominee.

    He was never the strongest against Trump, and this just decreased his strength further.

    Others, like Warren, Sanders, are much stronger and are much better nominees.

    They are stronger, because they do the work more and better, and they both do have appeal to unlikely voters, which can help in places where help is needed. (Sanders is far stronger, but that is a point of scale to debate in a different context)

    TL;DR: Biden just said he is not going to do the sell job. Forget giving a shit too.

    “That is for them to decide.”

    Dude, Biden doesn’t care how people vote! Made that as clear as Clinton did, and he will lose his ass like Clinton did, because he won’t even ask for, or sell people on why their vote for Biden is a good idea!

    Now, you just tried to set me up for blame when the guy you apparently care enough about does not care himself!

    And I will have none of it. Caring more than the candidate does is not a winning point of advocacy.

    None of this answers the question:

    What is in that vote for me?

    Biden’s whole campaign is, “Trump is a bad guy.”

    That will not garner enough votes where it really matters. My comments above contain why that is.

    And this discussion, to highlight mine above is why I asked the question.

    Joe Biden did this. Nobody else, and he is a big kid, with all the agency he needs.

    “I am not gonna do that.”

    Won’t do the work. Could give two shits.

    None of that is me shitting on Biden.


    Hey, we do need Bernie. Biden has not aged well. He is glitching like a used toy.

    Bernie is lucid, in the moment present.

    There is no comparison. You ask him that fucking question, and he will deliver it up solid, compelling. That is precisely why I am working to get him nominated.

    He gives a shit and will do the work. Strongest against Trump. College interns have a hard time keeping up with him.

    We need someone, who at a minimum, gives a shit and who has clear answers to those, “what am I voting for?” questions.

    Without those things, we cannot expect votes, and without that firm expectation, we cannot expect a win.

    If Biden won’t work for it, why the fuck do I care?

    If Biden will work for it, I could care.

    More importantly, why do you care?

    Simple as that.

    Realize, “nothing else matters but defeating Trump” is not a universally held sentiment.

    You can argue why, but it just is. The people are where they are.

    Say your cat won’t eat Meow mix. Wants Friskies.

    You think Meow Mix is better, but dammit, that cat won’t eat it.

    That is where people are. Not all of the people, but more than enough to matter.

    Either we nominate someone who will garner those votes, or we are left with a much smaller pool of people who will vote against Trump, because fuck Trump.

    Good luck with that.



    You should vote for Trump.


    I think you are butthurt to the point of being just frothy.

    Face it, you got nothing on me and what I had to say here.

    Nothing. And I know it too.


    Now, that cat analogy. We play it your way, fuck the cat. It is gonna eat friskies and like it!

    Maybe the neighbor has Meow Mix.

    Or maybe it is forced to eat it or die, so you find pissin your shoes.

    Does not end well, generally.

    My points here are all about it ending well.

    Worse, you are fine whether the cat has Meow Mix. But you insist, and for or to what end?

    If you gave even a tiny shit, you and that cat are happy, but you can’t be bothered.

    And it is true! You are gonna be just fine with Bernie, right along with a lot of other currently not fine people.

    But no! Fuck em. They are poors. Cats! Eat those Friskies because Meow Mix costs too much.


    Piss in your shoes? Maybe. For what?

    Worth it? Doubtful.


    Sorry, guys; I have gone cross-eyed. Nevertheless, I can still hear my high school U.S. government teacher from the autumn of 1992. She had the students build up arguments for which Presidential candidate they would prefer to support, and she told them, “your choices are George Bush or Bill Clinton. Your candidate cannot be Ross Perot.” Part of the message that she was trying to convey was that American political contests boil down to dualities. The major parties have so much influence, in her view, because they are so mainstream. For many years, I wanted to prove her wrong, but I couldn’t.

    She also did a lesson wherein she taught that American politics is so pro-establishment that only an older Caucasian man with an Anglo-Saxon name has a chance of being elected to the Presidency. History proved her wrong, and she may have even lived to see it.


    Your teacher should mention primaries are not the same.

    This is a primary where we attempt to nominate the strongest opponent. They are not all equally capable.

    Further, duality or not, people can, will work these options in an election:

    Vote Major Party
    Vote Other
    No Confidence

    Because these options are always present, and we do not compel people to vote, it is on our nominee to do the work to garner a winning vote tally.

    In a very real sense, a poor primary choice very significantly impacts the general election.

    We care about no more Trump.

    Not everyone does. Not everyone sees that as a worthy, primary goal.

    If we do not want Trump, it then requires consideration. Required because votes are not a given.

    No consideration for people we need votes from = more likely loss and more Trump. The less consideration there is, the higher chance the loss is.


    I am convinced Biden is not the answer. I will leave it there.


    Yeah, he is not. We are seeing post peak Biden now.


    Per my social studies teachers of long ago, the “job” of major parties is to select the most mainstream candidate to present at the Presidential election. The details of how that selection is done are handled internally by the parties. Reading between the lines, it becomes apparent that the American political system is one that is very pro the status quo.

    Minor parties, according to the lessons taught by these teachers, draw people with views that are seen as extreme or with which most voters cannot connect. In my experience, I have found that minor parties have major difficulty in handling internal struggles and factionalism because of the strong ideologues that they tend to attract.

    Many years ago, a long-departed poster on this board was taken to task for making a flippant-sounding comment about how the Democrats can make two seemingly unrelated factions work together. In principle, that comment was actually quite important; the reason that the Republican and Democratic parties work is that they can bring various factions and interests under their respective “big tents.” I am not registered with any political party, so it is not my business to delve into the minutia of what Democrats should do. It is pretty obvious to me that they have to find the person who will draw the most votes, but that is the case in every election, not just the next one.


    Solid take.

    Yes. They do.

    It is my view, we have an economic bloc that occupies both party leadership. They differ, but they are in agreement on no going down any kind of “New Deal” FDR road.

    That is what the Dem struggle is right now. The rank and file have low confidence. Among indies, this is especially true!

    Most of the actual party members do not realize they are less than a third, flirting hard with a quarter of the voters. Indies are over 40 percent.

    Bernie got 45 percent of the party last time.

    Blue no matter who does not select for a winner, or can, but there is this struggle.

    Bernie has well over half the indies too. That is a voting bloc, when one includes the 45 percent of Dems, twice as large as the core “fuck Bernie” faction of the Dems.

    It is a recipe for loss.


    A recipe for loss is nominating an extreme candidate like Bernie who is promising the moon but won’t be able to deliver on any of his unrealistic proposals.

    I’m not gonna worry too much about it since Warren is going to eat his lunch anyway. My only concern is whether the Bernie Bots like KSKD will sabotage things by protest vote to allow Trump to win.

    And let’s face a hard fact: RBG isn’t going to outlive a second Trump term.

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