The fallacy of Conservative Christianity

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  • #5031
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    There are only very specific reasons for excommunicating someone and it does not necessarily have anything to do with the severity of the act. For example, a mass murderer is not excommunicated because of his sins and crimes, though he may not receive Communion until he makes a good confession. A priest is not excommunicated for abusing a child, and he may receive Communion after he makes a good confession, though he should be removed from his office and suffer civil penalties.

    This should help clear up the misunderstanding behind a previous post:

    The most famous excommunication of our own times was that of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated for consecrating bishops without the permission of the Holy See. This excommunication was formalised by an apostolic letter of John Paul II entitled Ecclesia Dei, which was dated July 2 1988. Again, this excommunication recognised what had long been a fact: that the archbishop had abandoned any semblance of obedience to the Pope. This excommunication, which applied as well to the bishops consecrated, was later lifted in 2009. This removed an obstacle to the reconciliation of these schismatic bishops, but that reconciliation has still to take place.

    More common is excommunication latae sententiae, or what is often termed “automatic excommunication”, where someone, in committing a certain act, incurs the penalty without any canonical process having to be undertaken. The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre falls into this category. By consecrating bishops against the Pope’s will, he went into schism and was excommunicated. The later apostolic letter merely recognised this fact and reminded the faithful of it.

    How easy is it to get automatically excommunicated? The Code of Canon Law mentions several crimes that incur the penalty automatically. These include physically assaulting the Pope, stealing the Host for a sacrilegious purpose, a priest giving absolution to a partner in a sin against the Sixth Commandment, a priest who violates the seal of the confessional, and someone who actually procures an abortion.

    This last one is likely to have the most application today. As with all canonical penalties, there are conditions attached. The guilty person must act deliberately and freely, be over 17 years of age, and must not be acting inadvertently, but must know the law. Moreover, an actual abortion must have occurred to merit the penalty. Quite often the mother of the child will not incur the penalty, given the circumstances. But the doctors and other medical people will, as they can hardly claim compulsion or ignorance. As for legislators who promote abortion and make it possible, they surely must incur the penalty.

    entire article: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2013/07/12/getting-excommunicated-is-much-harder-than-you-think/

    #5032
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    The Church teaches against any sexual activitiy outside of the marital act, and opposition to masturbation is not based on Onan.

    From the Catechism–offenses against chastity:

    2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

    2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”139

    That was just the first two. To see more about all the other offenses, please click here:
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

    #5045
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Are you kidding me?

    What do you mean you don’t know?

    For all your blather about role of government and free markets, which do not exist anywhere in the developed world, not knowing these important elements of history, is irresponsible.

    #5055
    duxrule
    Participant

    Excommunication is not the issue. Eternal damnation is. Millions of Catholics all around the world have decided that using contraception is more important than the fate of their immortal souls. Not just a significant percentage, but (at least in the US) a large majority. These people know and understand the supposed consequences. Why is there such a disconnect between those who “know the consequences” and their actions? Clearly dogma is not aligning with facts in this instance. We know what “the Church” says. Millions refuse to comply, yet they still call themselves Catholics.

    #5062
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    They are not practicing their faith. They are “cafeteria Catholics,” cherry picking the easy parts of the faith. They should at least abstain from receiving Commnunion until they get their situation in order. That some refuse to comply doesn’t invalidate the precept.

    #5064
    Deane Johnson
    Participant

    I’m a bit curious. Why do people follow all of these rules made up by man.

    Neither Jesus nor God created the Catholic Church (nor any other) did he? If so, point me to the authority on that.

    So, when the Church hierarchy in Rome make up these rules which change from time to time, why would anyone want to follow them?

    #5067
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    Deane, you got me. I can’t think of any reason whatsoever to follow such a silly set of rules.

    The ability to masturbate is not limited to just humans. Many other species like to please themselves too.

    And let’s face it, the ability to masturbate is free, unlimited, feels good, and is good for your health.

    Just think how many young boys would not have been violated if the catholic church didn’t have such a hang up on sexual activity.

    #5072
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Never mind, it appears our forum is much smarter now. Video commentary removed.

    Re: Authority

    Frankly, the church organized, developed it’s theology and then did what it took to enforce it, thus garnering dominion over it’s brand of faith.

    Note, this was often done in partnership with governments, rulers, etc… with the very frequent result of doctrine, faith, rules, being law with material consequences, bolstered with the idea that, “God says” without a material basis.

    Today, that is diluted, and it’s a good thing. In the US, it’s diluted by law, nobody has to do what the church says, unless they somehow want to submit to the church.

    Still, we see organized influence on things like health care, where might makes right, the law and social contract be dammed.

    I do not think highly of these things, and in this modern time, believe we should be entirely past them.

    #5074
    Broadway
    Participant

    >>Neither Jesus nor God created the Catholic Church
    He did create His Word…read it..believe it…live it.
    But you gotta have faith!!!

    Only 2 commandments really count anyways…
    Matthew 22:36-40 English Standard Version (ESV)
    “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    #5077
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    #5079
    Chris_Taylor
    Participant

    Deane you are correct. Jesus never intended to start a church, his followers did. And quite honestly, it was messy, because you had some Jews and some Gentiles as followers of Jesus. It wasn’t until the book of John that a split happened and the Jews went their way and Christian’s their own way. And it has remained that way since around 90-100CE.

    “He did create His Word…read it..believe it…live it.
    But you gotta have faith!!!”

    http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/5-things-i-wish-christians-would-admit-about-bible#gr3gupfpTFi2J1Rp.01

    #5082
    Deane Johnson
    Participant

    “English Standard Version”

    So, you just sort of pick a version that says what you want it to? I that correct?

    Much of man’s religion is not the word of God, but rather what various humans thought it should be over the years. To look at the simple things, the Catholics didn’t eat meat on Friday until some rather earthy individual apparently changed that rule. The Jews don’t eat pork, the Baptists don’t drink alcohol, the Mormans don’t drink coffee and so on.

    I’m suggesting that most of the religious “rules” are not those of a supreme being, but rather the views of various incarnations of man over the centuries. How can there be “versions” of Gods word?

    And the newest proclamation of man (The Pope) is that dogs go to heaven. That vision would mean that dogs have a soul. What next will man think of?

    #5084
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    If you define “soul” as, “that which makes a being unique”, then dogs absolutely have a soul.

    Just saying…

    #5086
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    I’m a bit curious. Why do people follow all of these rules made up by man.

    Neither Jesus nor God created the Catholic Church (nor any other) did he? If so, point me to the authority on that.

    So, when the Church hierarchy in Rome make up these rules which change from time to time, why would anyone want to follow them?
    .

    The “rules” aren’t man-made. I wouldn’t strive to follow them if that’s all they were. But they’re not onerous and only a part of the picture. Unfortunately these conversations descend into the “negatives” and we seldom discuss the positives such as the peace of mind self-discipline can bring, besides the effects receving the sacraments has on a person. Receiving Holy Communion and the Sacrament of Pennance can have a profound effect, and unfortunately, those Christians outside of the Universal Church do not know or understand what they are missing.

    Of course Jesus started a Church. He wouldn’t have left it all up to individuals to do their own thing so that each person can be their own pope with their own doctrine tailor-made to suit their whims and desires. To practice true Christianity is a challenge.

    If you’re interested in understanding why we believe that there is a Church that began with the Apostles and continues to this day, the largest denomination of any religion in the world with one doctrine and a visible head, you might start with this:

    http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/peter-and-the-papacy

    There are no “rules” that have been changed, unless you’re referring to some disciplines that can change from time to time. Abstaining from meat on Fridays is not dogma. It’s a discipline that can be changed, and applies now only to Fridays during Lent. Doctrine has and will always remain constant, though it can develop. It is never reversed and the pope has no authority or power to do that.

    That the Pope said dogs go to Heaven is not some kind of “decree.” That’s his personal opinion and I hope he’s right about that. I hope that’s the case for all animals.

    #5088
    duxrule
    Participant

    “To practice true Christianity is a challenge.”

    Horseshit.

    Thanks for the Catechism 95 lessons, but I will pass. “The rules” are absolutely man-made, and there is NO way that you can prove otherwise. As much as you try to claim that the Bible is “The Word of God,” it’s still transcribed and presented by man. All religion is constructed by man. This is irrefutable. And Dogmas DO change. Read this:

    http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/rcc7-dogma.htm

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