October 10, 2016 at 9:18 pm #23803Chris_TaylorParticipant
What happens after Trump loses the election, will the evangelicals that supported him be there for him?October 10, 2016 at 10:29 pm #23804proud2baconservativeSpectator
They are not voting for him to be the Pope or your pastor. They are supporting him because they believe the effect of his policies would lead to a greater good than the effect of those of Hillary.
It’s as simple as that. JohnP is just looking for another excuse to beat up Christian leaders.
Of course they will not be seeking him out for spiritual guidance, and there would be no reason to associate with him post-election if he loses. Just like hopefully those Democrats who adore Clinton and who supported him after his scandal (which was just the tip of the iceberg) hopefully did not think he might be a good Sunday school teacher or would trust him to drive their daughter home.
I’m voting for Trump because he would be a better president than Hillary. I’m voting for the Republican platform and against the Democrat platform. It would be nice if Trump were holy and virtuous, but he’s not, and I only have two choices. Trump’s flaws don’t make Hillary’s policies appealing.
I think John Pavlovitz is a putz because his arguments are deceitful and he builds his following by tearing down, criticizing, and acting smug and superior to mainstream Christians. He ought to say something nice about them from time to time. And being a pastor, what about saving souls instead of preaching the gospel of Liberal Democrat constantly. His religion seems to be Democrat politics.
He refuses to give any benefit of the doubt to those who think differently than he does about politics. He never allows for the possibility that there could be good intentions. It’s always because those evangelicals are just plain evil. And he fails to make any case as to why those Christian leaders should instead be supporting Hillary. That she’s “not-Trump” is not compelling.
He doesn’t “nail it” for me. I think he’s a poser at best, a wolf in sheep’s clothing at worst. He’s another pastor-centered church, putting his own spin on Christianity and saying what some want to hear in order to build a following and make a buck.
MHOOctober 10, 2016 at 10:56 pm #23806jr_techParticipant
F&B sez: “I don’t like what Trump said. I don’t talk like that and never did.”
And yet you just called a respected pastor a prick… curiousOctober 10, 2016 at 11:03 pm #23807Andy BrownParticipant
Bacon’s hypocrisy in full bloom.October 22, 2016 at 6:31 pm #24216
How the religious right embraced Trump and lost its moral authority
For decades, Christian (and some Jewish) conservative spokesmen portrayed their involvement in partisan battles as an aspect of their faith’s witness. Judeo-Christian ethics and the inculcation of moral standards in public life were not just talking points to the organized religious right; they were the reason the movement existed in the first place. Jerry Falwell, who launched the Moral Majority in 1979, explained that its purpose was “to turn back the flood tide of moral permissiveness, family breakdown, and general capitulation to evil” that he feared was inundating American life.
You didn’t have to sympathize with the Christian right’s political platform to understand why so many evangelical leaders were appalled by the sexual scandals that trailed Bill Clinton into the White House. It was no mystery, for example, why Ralph Reed, an early leader of the Christian Coalition, would insist vehemently, in 1998, as pressure was growing for Clinton’s impeachment, that “we care about the conduct of our leaders, and we will not rest until we have leaders of good moral character.” Or why the formidable televangelist Pat Robertson would blast Clinton as a “debauched, debased, and defamed” politician who turned the Oval Office into a “playpen for the sexual freedom of . . . the 1960s.”
That isn’t how they talk about Trump.
Far from leading the opposition to the GOP’s grotesque nominee, Reed chairs his religious advisory board. Nothing in Trump’s long record of lecherous and disreputable behavior has shaken Reed’s support — not even the video in which he boasts explicitly of groping women. “People of faith” have more important concerns, Reed told CNN on Monday. “I think a 10-year-old tape of a private conversation with a TV talk show host ranks pretty low on their hierarchy of concerns.”
Robertson, who has said that Trump “inspires us all,” isn’t backing away either. The Donald’s talk of grabbing women by the crotch, Robertson indulgently explained to his TV audience, was just his way of “trying to look like he’s macho.”
Falwell died in 2007, but his son — Jerry Falwell Jr., the current president of Liberty University — fulsomely endorsed Trump in January. “Donald Trump lives a life of loving and helping others as Jesus taught,” Falwell the Younger gushed. He, too, sees no reason to walk back his blessing.
“We’re all sinners, every one of us,” Falwell says now. “I don’t think the American people want this country to go down the toilet because Donald Trump made some dumb comments on a videotape 11 years ago.”
Not everyone on the religious right has sacrificed their principles for Trump’s sake. A coalition of Liberty University students issued an eloquent statement Wednesday rebuking Falwell for endorsing the GOP nominee. “Donald Trump does not represent our values and we want nothing to do with him,” they wrote. Albert Mohler, a deeply respected Baptist theologian, remains as steadfast in opposing Trump as he was in opposing Bill Clinton.
But they and other honorable exceptions will not undo the damage caused by the pro-Trump leaders of the evangelical right. What started as Christian witness ended in hypocritical partisanship. Religious conservatives shed their principles, and thereby dismantled their influence.October 22, 2016 at 7:19 pm #24217
Crisis of faith: Donald Trump’s revelations and the hypocrisy of the Christian Right
How did the party that says it is for family values make such a vile old man its standard bearer? Why do so many leading Republicans stay with him or, gingerly, distanced themselves only after this latest revelation? How can any pastor endorse him, much less praise him as “a fine Christian man” and “unwavering in his commitment” to Christian concerns?
Republican politicians who are timid say they are appalled by Trump, but do not disavow him. Most of the few who have are Mormons, whose moral upbringing leaves no room to tolerate boasts about grabbing women by their genitals.
Pastors who favor the prosperity gospel, some of whom serve on Trump’s “evangelical executive advisory committee,” preach sacrifice and the duty Christ imposed on them to not just pray, but to provide for the poor. Like the apostate Muslim zealots who hate America, they are at one not with the Christian god but with Trump in spewing hatred of Muslims.
It’s not Christian to cheat workers out of their wages, but Trump has done it all his life. He fought for 18 years to not fully pay illegal immigrants hired to demolish the old Bonwit Teller department store to make way for Trump Tower.
The Bible is full of admonitions to pay workers in full. Romans 4:4 says “to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due” and I Timothy 5:18 says “The laborer deserves to be paid.”
Trump’s more than 150 illegals were so desperate that some slept in winter cold in the unheated building they were demolishing. They were promised a mere $4 an hour (about $13 an hour in today’s money) the Old Testament at Deuteronomy 24:14-15 is especially on point, emphasis added:
You shall not withhold the wages of poor and needy laborers, whether other Israelites or aliens who reside in your land in one of your towns. You shall pay them their wages daily before sunset, because they are poor and their livelihood depends on them; otherwise they might cry to the Lord against you, and you would incur guilt.October 22, 2016 at 7:27 pm #24218
The Heavenly Heights of Evangelical Hypocrisy
Despite everything that has happened over the past few days, or for that matter the last 15 months, there is one group that has been rock solid in its support of Donald Trump: religious conservatives.
Gary Bauer, Tony Perkins, the Rev. Robert Jeffress and Ralph Reed have all restated their support for Trump in light of the release of a videotape that shows him to be not only lewd but a sexual predator. “A ten-year-old tape of a private conversation with a talk show host ranks low on their hierarchy of concerns,” Reed said, about people of faith.
So this is what is distinctive about Christian involvement in American politics today: leading evangelical leaders standing by their man, regardless of how depraved and misogynistic he is. Those who for decades have spoken about the importance of character in public leaders, lamented the degraded state of our culture and worried about the human cost of the sexual revolution are the most reliable defenders of a man whose life is a moral cesspool.
When Trump said last January, “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters,” it was not yet clear that the group he could most rely on was religious conservatives.
One other thing needs to be said. It is not as if evangelicals, in embracing Trump, did so because he was a committed and articulate advocate for the causes they care about most. Quite the opposite. Trump is a late and cynical convert to many causes that are important to them. It is a fantasy to pretend that as president he would expend effort on their behalf. Trump would betray them as he betrays everyone. The allegiance of Christian conservatives, and the hypocrisy it required, was won for virtually nothing in return.
If religious conservatives who still support him do end up abandoning him, it will be because of a power calculation — because they view him as an inevitable loser, not because they see him as an offense, as a person unworthy of their support and unfit to be president. At that point, their abandonment of Trump won’t much matter. The damage already done to them and their faith witness cannot be contained. We reap what we sow.October 22, 2016 at 7:45 pm #24219
This is the last spastic breath from the Religious Right before its overdue death
I don’t need to tell you about the latest revelation of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump’s views and behavior toward women. I won’t tell you these comments, because they’re not appropriate for any ages.
But I will tell you that the American evangelical movement and Religious Right won’t be the same after the 2016 presidential election.
We already know this election has exposed deep racial divides in America at large and among evangelicals. Trump polls at historically low levels, perhaps just 3 percent, among African Americans who aren’t swayed by his promise to restore “law and order.”
But we’re also seeing this election expose significant generational divides. Some older evangelical leaders argue that Trump is a “morally good” choice and that he “lives a life of loving and helping others as Jesus taught in the great commandment.” Closer examination, though, continues to reveal the New York businessman as beholden to the unholy trinity of money, sex and power.
Younger evangelicals and former evangelicals have taken note. An aspiring president of the United States can brag about sexually assaulting women and still claim the backing of many if not most of the older stalwarts in the Religious Right.
Trump can maintain nearly all his evangelical support in the voting booth despite unrepentant lying and cheating. But these same leaders still insist on a traditional, biblical ethic when it comes to views on same-sex marriage in evangelical ministries.
To the older evangelicals planning to vote for Trump: You can try to explain the difference in electing a president and hiring a 23-year-old college graduate to evangelize students. You can say we’re electing a commander in chief and not a Sunday school teacher. You can say that God often raises up pagan leaders to deliver his people from their enemies. But no one is fooled by your arguments.
They can see you will apparently excuse anything in a Republican nominee so long as the alternative is a manifestly unqualified Clinton. And they will conclude that they don’t really need to listen to you when it comes to “traditional, biblical ethics.”
The 2016 presidential election will be remembered as the last spasm of energy from the Religious Right before its overdue death.
Hypocrisy is not about failing to live up to your standards. Hypocrisy is about teaching something you don’t actually believe.
Grace abounds for Christians who fall short of the glory of God and call on the name of Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. But woe to the hypocrites who hold the most powerful leader in the world to a lower standard than they do the searching young believer who desires to serve God and neighbor.October 23, 2016 at 10:22 am #24227proud2baconservativeSpectator
It’s about the Supreme Court and policy, not about electing a new Pope or a hiring a Sunday school teacher.
Trump is better than Clinton for most Christians. Trump’s sins don’t make illegal immigration or abortion on demand more appealing. That Christians don’t approve of his present or past sins ought to be obvious, just as it should be obvious that Clinton voters don’t approve of her lies, greed, and enabling of her lecherous husband.
The overlooked evil in this situation is the coordinated effort of the Clinton-complicit liberal media and the Clinton campaign to sabotage a candidate in the final hours. There was no concern for women or morality, only for power and political advantage, otherwise they would have brought this up a long time ago.
Clinton has her skeletons too, possibly some real ones, but the media uses this as an excuse to ignore them.October 23, 2016 at 10:34 am #24228LangstonParticipant
Trump would be a great Pope and the best Sunday school teacher. Just ask him.October 23, 2016 at 12:26 pm #24231
Just be aware that in supporting Trump with all you know about him, you are making a conscious decision to compromise any moral superiority you may feel entitled to.
Now, that it’s your guy, it’s justifiable.
This is the very definition of hypocrisy.October 23, 2016 at 4:12 pm #24239Andy BrownParticipant
Nothing new from Bacon even worth commenting on. All he can post are lies and more lies. Catholics and Christians have been deserting drumpf in droves. Bacon in fact has thrown his own pious ass under the bus and it’s pretty clear drumpf is headed towards the biggest loss in decades. The NY Times now has drumpf with a 7% chance of winning. The down ticket GOP losses are becoming more and more likely by the hour.October 23, 2016 at 5:57 pm #24240
Biblical Christians rightly affirm universal truth and absolute morality, while decrying the rise of moral relativism. We see the enemies of the faith – angry atheists, secular humanists, political lefties – constantly pushing moral relativism, insisting that there are no universal moral laws we all are subject to.
But let me tell you something: evangelicals can relax about what our enemies are up to, since we seem to be doing a great job of destroying the faith from within as we also shill for moral relativism in so many different ways. This has been going on for quite some time now.
The religious left has certainly been at this game, championing the immoral causes of the secular left, whether it is homosexual marriage or abortion on demand. They have trashed the faith as they have fully embraced moral relativism.
But sadly plenty of conservative evangelicals are doing the exact same thing. This has been abundantly clear this year as so many evangelicals have made Donald Trump their human messiah to be defended at all costs. I have interacted with hundreds of these folks this year, and it has been one of the most painful and grievous experiences of my entire Christian life.
Everything Scripture has to say about such matters seems to be thrown out the window as the only thing that really matters for these evangelical Trumpites is getting Donald in and keeping Hillary out of the White House. That really does seem to be their driving passion in life, and it seems that everything is morally permissible to attain this end.
The means can be as questionable as all get out, but it doesn’t matter: Donald must win, or else. Thus ‘the end justifies the means’ has now become for millions of evangelicals the new standard of Christian morality. It is how they do Christianity now. It seems for many, “For me to live is Trump and to die is gain” has become the new Christian credo to live and die for.
And yes it really is that bad. I have experienced this first hand many hundreds of times now. It breaks my heart as it must break the heart of God. It is nothing more than sinful idolatry, and it must be repented of. And the perfect example of this has just occurred this weekend when yet another damning revelation emerged of just what a vile, despicable, immoral lout Trump is.
In case you are not up on the latest, he said such edifying gems as this:
Trump: “I DID TRY AND F**K HER.”
Trump: “GRAB THEM BY THE P***Y.”
Trump: “I JUST START KISSING THEM. IT’S LIKE A MAGNET. JUST KISS. I DON’T EVEN WAIT.”
Trump: “I MOVED ON HER LIKE A B***H, BUT I COULDN’T GET THERE.”
Trump: “SHE’S NOW GOT THE BIG PHONY T**S.”
Yet once again – incredibly – so many of these evangelicals have rushed to his defence. I have dealt with many dozens of such folks in just the past 24 hours. They will actually make excuses for sin, seek to cover it up, water it down, justify it, make it seem OK, and insist it really is no big deal. These are evangelicals we are talking about here, not immoral or amoral atheists!
“Oh it was just some boys’ talk.” “All men talk this way.” “It happened a while ago.” “It is not so bad.” Yes I have actually heard Christians say all this and more. On and on the excuse making machine goes. And this is being done in three main ways which I have seen so often now that it really makes me ill. They are: “Yes but…,” “No one’s perfect,” and “You are a perfectionist.” Let me examine each of these.
Yes he is crude and rude, but….
Yes he had the morals of an alley cat, but…
Yes he is not quite my cup of tea, but…
Yes he has pretty reprehensible character, but…
Yes he is no saint, but…
And the second half of these lousy excuses is always this: “But Hillary is worse.” Or, “But Hillary will attack the church.” Or “But Hillary will make bad SCOTUS appointees” etc. etc. Um, since when have biblical Christians decided that it is now perfectly OK to excuse and justify the gross immorality and sins of one person simply because another person is also guilty of such things?
Is that the depths that evangelicals are now descending to? Defending reprehensible filth and perversion because all that matters is keeping Hillary out of the White House? So that is now the sum total of Christian ethics and morality? Whatever it takes to keep her out is the summum bonum of biblical morality and Scriptural truth?
This my friends is nothing other than moral relativism: the very thing we claim to detest in the enemies of the faith. But now it is just fine? Really? As long as Trump wins, everything is of secondary concern?
These defenders of Trump insist that a Hillary win will mean a real assault on Christianity and will prevent us from freely speaking about Christ. Um, earth calling the Trumpites. Trump already is gagging all Christian voices by trashing the Christian faith as countless gullible and undiscerning believers throw all their support and faith in this immoral lefty pagan.
Sorry, that is doing far more damage to the faith than anything Hillary might do. Evangelicals who have become blatant moral relativists have already taken a sledge hammer to the church. Pagans like Hillary can just sit back and watch as we do the demolition job ourselves.
“No one’s perfect”
I have lost count of the number of times I have had this idiotic excuse thrown at me. Why not try telling me something I don’t know? Of course no one is perfect. That is completely beside the point. The issue is, does character, integrity, decency and righteousness count for anything these days, especially when it comes to leaders and the fate of our nation?
It did matter 100 per cent for the American Founding Fathers. But for millions of American evangelicals, the only thing that matters is winning, and everything else is just a distraction. Trump must get in, and whatever it takes to make this happen is now the moral thing to do. Hmm, sounds just like Marxist morality to me: whatever it takes to accomplish our goals is moral. Anything that prevents this is immoral.
Oh, and I thought Jesus actually told us to be perfect as his father in heaven is. I guess these same evangelicals would deride and mock Jesus as well for such impractical idealism. “Let’s get real Jesus – we have to make America great again, so we don’t have time for all these lofty and unhelpful principles and stuff.”
This my friends is nothing other than moral relativism.
“You are a perfectionist”
I have seen so many of these evangelicals savagely smear and vilify Christians who refuse to join the Trump cult. They viciously attack committed, principled Christians who stand on the word of God and their biblically informed conscience, smearing them as being hung up on “principles” and being “perfectionists,” wanting a Sunday School teacher – or Jesus – in the White House, etc.
No I do not want or expect Jesus to run for POTUS. But I do expect a candidate put up by the GOP to actually be a Republican, a conservative, and have some basic values and principles. If any trailer park trash will do, because winning is all that matters, then we have sold our souls to the devil for a batch of humanistic porridge. And then conservatism has died as well as our Christian witness.
And that my friends is moral relativism.
These “Christians” who are still vigorously defending what this immoral pagan says and does are doing far more damage to Christianity than Hillary ever will. They are dragging the name of our Lord and his holy reputation through the dirt. No Christian should ever be guilty of doing that.
This my friends is moral relativism, and these evangelicals need to repent. And they need to repent of their gross hypocrisy as well. If a Democrat was found guilty of such perverted filth, evangelicals would rightly howl him down, saying no true Christian could ever support such an immoral sleazeball.
But when Trump does the very same sorts of things we detested and condemned in Bill Clinton, they not only defend him and demand that we still vote for him, but they make appalling excuses for his sin and shout down genuinely concerned believers.
This my friends is moral relativism, and this is why the church is losing big time in America and in the West.
As usual Matt Walsh has far more biblical wisdom and common sense on all this than millions of deceived evangelicals who no longer can think straight or act morally. What he said this weekend echoes my sentiments exactly:
Don’t defend Trump on this one, guys. Please don’t do it. Whether you’ll vote for him or not, please don’t debase and discredit yourself by defending a dirtbag who bragged about sexually assaulting women. Don’t. Just don’t. It’s not worth it.
And yes, it’s sexual assault. In the tapes from 2005 (he was sixty at the time — not 15) he talks about being able to “do whatever he wants” to women because he’s famous. He said he tried to “f*ck” a married woman but she shut him down. Then he said he can kiss women or “grab ’em in the p*ssy” and they’ll let him do it because he’s “a star.”
Yeah, Bill Clinton is just as bad. Yeah, Hillary is still terrible. Yeah, sure, but so what? The badness of someone else doesn’t make the badness of Trump less bad. And it certainly doesn’t excuse us in DEFENDING the badness.
This was my fear all along. This is why I opposed Trump. This is what I’ve been saying for over a year now. Trump will lose in a landslide and take down the whole movement with him. He’ll take it down because so many of its members are sacrificing the integrity and credibility of conservatism for Trump’s sake.
And it will only get worse from here. They have more dirt on Trump. Worse dirt. Get ready. It will all bubble to the surface now. Already I’ve read that a former Miss Utah is prepared to go on the record about being sexually assaulted by Trump. It’s all coming out. Everything. Just like I said it would. Just like so many of us said it would back when we tried to warn against nominating Trump. Nobody listened. And here we are.
The Trump campaign is coming apart. There’s probably no way to stop it. But all I ask is that you — I mean my reader, who I respect and appreciate — please don’t lower yourself for this man’s sake. Vote how you see fit, but don’t start telling us that it’s not so bad for a married 60 year old man to brag about grabbing random women in the crotch. It’s not OK. And it doesn’t suddenly become OK because a Republican did it.
We aren’t moral relativists. Or we shouldn’t be. But what grieves me so much is that Trump has turned so many of us into that.
I am not a moral relativist. I cannot be, since I am a biblical Christian. But it seems millions of evangelicals have been willing to trash moral absolutes and universal truth as they shill for this human wrecking ball. They will not only cause Hillary to easily get into the White House, but far worse, they have dishonoured their Lord and brought shame on the cause of Christ.October 24, 2016 at 9:36 am #24251LurkingGrendelParticipant
The sheer volume of lying, distortion, and evasion from the cowardly and hypocritical Pope Bacon makes fact checking him generally as pointless as attempting to fact check Donald Trump. Like Donald, Bacon never admits error or engages in honest dialogue. It’s just endless lies and prevarication; it’s like some kind of mental disorder. That bit of obviousness aside, from his latest bit of nonsensical blathering this gem stood out:
“The overlooked evil in this situation is the coordinated effort of the Clinton-complicit liberal media and the Clinton campaign to sabotage a candidate in the final hours. There was no concern for women or morality, only for power and political advantage, otherwise they would have brought this up a long time ago” belched out, Bacon.
It’s nice to see he’s fully adopted the right wing meme of “the media” is responsible for Donald’s problems. You mean the same media that’s give him in excess of two billion (that’s billion with a “b”) dollars in free airtime over the last year? Far more than any of his former GOP rivals or his current general election opponent? That media?
The GOP in general and it’s genuinely ignorant and lunatic base specifically, have no real understanding or acceptance at all of what the media’s actual role is in our society. It’s to challenge. It’s to question. It’s to demand accountability. It’s to educate. What makes the complaints all the more hard to swallow is that our media generally does an utterly miserable job on all of those counts. The corporate media is not particularly liberal. They’re privatized, for profit entities that endlessly engage in tabloid levels of nonsense reporting including the elevating and perpetuating false equivalencies, providing inaccurate framing and context, and failing to doggedly ask the right questions of the right people for fear of losing access. That criticism aside, the one thing “the media” has done pretty well for the past six month or so is: Accurately reporting what has actually Donald Trump said and what Donald Trump has actually done.
Donald Trump’s problems are all of his own making. He’s a serial lying, racist, bigoted, ignorant, thin skinned and blustering bully. By his own words. By his own actions. It’s your candidates’ fault. Period. Damn that media for showing Donald for who he is! Why can’t the fail to hold him accountable for his own words and simply lob softballs at him like Sean Hannity or Fox and Friends?
As for “sabotaging in the final hours”, that’s just stupid and wrong. (Bacon said it, big surprise!) By the numbers, Donald Trump was badly losing this election long *before* women started coming out of the woodwork to accuse him of groping, unwelcome kisses, and other advances. Almost without exception, the women in question say the reason they came forward at this time was specifically because Donald Trump went on national TV and lied about never having engaged in that kind of activity. In other words, he called them liars. And they were mad. It’s not that hard to understand.
There’s zero proof of any kind The Clinton campaign had a thing to do with any of these woman coming forward. And again, Bacon and The Stupid Brigade are mad at “the media” for daring to report their allegations; many of which (in spite of Donald’s claims to the contrary) are both believable and compelling and in several cases substantiated by third parties. So yes, you’re victim blaming. Again.
All quite “Christian” of you.
You and your ilk are the poster children for adopting atheism.October 24, 2016 at 10:36 am #24252
At least we’ve established that there are no longer any moral absolutes with the black and white “because God said so” crowd.
If they are able to compromise their principles enough to support Trump, maybe there’s room to compromise on some of their previously intractable positions.
(Steve Martin as Theodoric of York)
Because they are Yuge Hypocrites!
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