June 3, 2015 at 2:27 pm #11267Chris_TaylorParticipant
It is my belief, based on my own studies of scripture with plenty of help from the scholarly world, the crowd that accompanied Jesus as his ministry took root, was made up of the marginalized. The “others” of his day.
I would suggest that gays, lesbians, transgendered, were among that crowd. Women were also marginalized, yet Jesus put them in important positions in his ministry. The first evangelist was a woman. (see woman at the well story)
In our modern day westernized biblical understanding, the story of the Good Samaritan is a classic for this kind of discussion. However, the setting is far more important than the actual story, IMHO. When you read the narrative, the writer is giving you all who were in attendance, including the 1 percent who could read, i.e., a lawyer, religious leaders and the common people who followed Jesus.
The hero of the story, the Good Samaritan, could be easily exchanged for “the Good Homosexual, the Good Lesbian or the Good Transgendered.” No matter, the “other” sees the need beyond themselves and offers help. To hear that in first century Palestine is totally radical. It’s just the kind of story (parable) that Jesus would use to show his constituents what Kingdom of God living actually looks like.
Caitlyn Jenner is not massively confused, Broadway. On the contrary, Caitlyn has truly found herself after years of trying to come to grips with what Bruce was feeling. I can honor that honesty. I may not completely understand it, but that’s okay. I think of all the other transgendered individuals who’ve been struggling with this as well, and how it will manifest itself in their lives. Hopefully, as honestly as Caitlyn.June 3, 2015 at 3:23 pm #11268Andy BrownParticipant
“Caitlyn Jenner is not massively confused, Broadway. ”
Exactly. But Broadway is confused and people like Broadway are, too, and that is a “massive” problem for society. The biblical literalists, all 28% of them in this country, continue to be an impediment to peace and good will. Especially in the south where the 28% are governors and congressional majorities. http://reut.rs/1RKpfQG
Internationally, the problem is even larger as the literal approach when applied to Christianity (historically) ended up with many being killed in the name of religion and in the present day as applied to Islaam, well you know what’s happening there as well. Unfortunately, there is no solution to the myopia of zealotry no matter how bigoted and hypocritical it is.June 3, 2015 at 3:44 pm #11269duxruleParticipant
It’s interesting to watch the visceral reaction that this topic invokes in people. One of the guys on our morning show brought it up, and his cohort shot it down immediately. He wanted nothing to do with it. I don’t think it’s necessarily bigotry in every case, but the “flee or fight” response that comes from being forced into a complete polar shift in their thinking. It’s still a lot even for me to comprehend, but I respect Caitlyn for having the balls (pun intended) to do it.June 3, 2015 at 9:22 pm #11279BroadwayParticipant
Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. — G.K. ChestertonJune 3, 2015 at 9:42 pm #11281paulwalkerParticipant
“I am Cait” debuts on E! network July 26th. I told you so. However, this doesn’t change my mind of her decision to make the change which I support. It also does not change my mind that much of this is taking advantage of ratings potential. This is where I have some misgivings. I guess the family is in the “ratings” business, so I guess they can’t be faulted for trying to make a buck or a million. But another part of me says this should be a private matter. The exploitation of this is something we really have never seen.June 3, 2015 at 11:06 pm #11288missing_kskdParticipant
I’m OK with it being public. Jenner is a notable person, and this path is one that others struggle with. There are very significant risks and concerns and a lot of ambiguity on what acceptance is and means.
Other trans people have chosen to get out there and be great people and do great things. This seems to be a reasonable path to awareness and eventually acceptance.
On that basis, Jenner is doing a brave, valuable thing. Lots of trans people and transphobic people get a shot at either some validation, “I really am not alone, and it really can be OK, and I really can do what I want to do and be who I am”, or socialization, “Ok, they are who they are, it’s not a choice, and who am I to call them out?”
Many may just be curious as they are about anybody. That’s where the money gets made, and human interest type material is timeless in it’s appeal. Nothing wrong with that. How it’s seen depends on what the humanity being exploited really is. We shall see what happens on the show and can judge the merits of it all then.
It may be people identify with Caitlin and some real good is done on trans / transphobia, while people think the reality show, or I consider it more of an “expose'” might be in poor taste. That’s fine. Jenner pays a mortgage and we all move on from a bad call like we do a ton of other bad calls.June 3, 2015 at 11:07 pm #11289skepticalParticipant
Broadway said: “Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
There’s enough irony here to build the Empire State building 3 times over.
We’d laugh, but someone is on the Vista bridge following interaction with you on the bread line.June 3, 2015 at 11:20 pm #11291missing_kskdParticipant
lulz, true that.
A good female friend and I had drinks to catch up. It’s interesting how different men and women are about this. I saw it, and remarked to some people, obviously we are having it for discussion here. My experience is mostly muted from the male perspective, with a mix of, “hey, look at that!”, to “meh”, and “WTF?”
Her experience was, “OMG!” and it spread through her peer group quickly. They have all the photos and mostly have chatted it all out, everybody reacting quickly.
With the men, it’s a look at the Vanity Fair Photo, and some discussion like we see here. With the women, it’s everything! She’s got the whole set of stuff on her phone for sharing and chatter! Which she did, “Hey, look at the photos!” and with each one, expecting some dialog. Which ones do I like, why, etc…? I like the ones showing the photo shoot, because they look believable to me and they show how intense it all is, and I like the timeless ones, classic female presentations that are just great.
(this difference in experience is refreshing and a great plus to having friends of both genders)
I find the dialog easier with women than men. To us, it’s a downgrade more or less. Male privilege. We are more guarded and status aware, or maybe it’s just more directly linked to our interactions. Not sure.
With women, it’s just news! And a new member. They will focus on what it means for Jenner more than what it means to society overall, which is the more dominant dialog with men.
With everyone, “how does this work?”, if they aren’t trans aware.
So we talked some, and realize only some of us have real dialogs along these lines, and women have them to a far greater degree and percentage compared to men. They are just more open about it.
What does that really say about us? When I read the posts Broadway is making, I wonder if he has those real dialogs, just a chat with a friend, like normal. Like the ones we had more as kids when differences didn’t matter so much.
I personally value that and have worked to keep it in my life. And the reward for that is a lot of great friends, conversations, and people I can share something with unabashedly and get help, or just have them listen, whatever.
My life would be terrible if that were missing! And honestly, that was part of the benefit of marriage. Mrs and I do share, and there are almost no secrets and we are OK with all of that, and it’s awesome. I get strength from knowing I’ve got people in my life I can really talk to about real stuff.
Perhaps religion does a little harm here. When god is that person, and the rest is guarded for fear of non-acceptance, or judgement, people may live less robust, more lonely, kind of crappy lives.
Seems not worth it all to me.
And this is what Jenner is helping with. Right now there are dialogs going on all over the place. After a few with my peers of both genders, I think I get it, and it’s fine. Good for her. She’s free. No longer an actor, but just who she is and able to express that in life for real.
I get to do that every day and could not imagine the pain and strength required for somebody unable to do that.
Skep often writes of suicides. There you go. It’s real. They do end it, and they end it because it hurts and they aren’t strong enough, and they can’t draw on others for extra reserves in way too many cases either. Brutal thoughts, aren’t they?
Money or not, some good will get done here. Some people won’t jump off the bridge, some concerned people will have the talks that help them understand and grow, some people will take their own steps to being free or maybe just being real is a better way to put it, and that’s worth the flashy goings on in my book.June 3, 2015 at 11:38 pm #11293Andy BrownParticipant
Broadway continues to ignore the oppression, belittlement, hatred and marginalization represented by the numerous atrocities committed by the Christian Church.
More times than not, these atrocities are the result of trying to play God, pretending as if one group of people has complete knowledge of God’s will and is more blessed or chosen by God. Not surprisingly, the people who see the world this way are always exactly the people who also happen to belong in the group they believe to be the uber-blessed.
Time and time again, Broadway’s Jesus made it clear that we should not put ourselves in the place of playing God and that, unlike far too many humans, God welcomes and loves us all equally. Period. Too bad Broadway didn’t get the memo.June 4, 2015 at 9:58 am #11304duxruleParticipant
This is pretty hilarious. I’m sure many of us have seen this photo in the last day or so, along with its caption on “heroism.”
““As I see post after post about Bruce Jenner’s transition to a woman, and I hear words like, bravery, heroism, and courage, just thought I’d remind all of us what real American courage, heroism, and bravery looks like!””
It turns out that the photo isn’t anything EVEN CLOSE to what it appears to be, and was taken by a cross-dresser that was beaten into a coma by five other men.June 4, 2015 at 11:12 am #11307Alfredo_TParticipant
One aspect that DOES make me uncomfortable is that Jenner’s struggle is getting attention simply because a famous person in involved. I think that there is a bit of a “rubber necking at a car crash” curiosity aspect in play. There are no nationally televised interviews, Vanity Fair photo shoots, and reality TV shows for non-celebrity people who go through gender identity struggles.June 4, 2015 at 11:28 am #11308LangstonParticipant
Non-celebrities do not make money for the media.June 4, 2015 at 11:44 am #11309edselehrParticipant
Dux, that photo you inserted in your post…that looks like GI Joe dolls, not actual soldiers. “Real bravery”, indeed.June 14, 2015 at 7:09 pm #11594June 14, 2015 at 7:47 pm #11596VitalogyParticipant
No. Shitty discourse from a shitty human being.
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