June 15, 2018 at 10:57 pm #37519
I don’t want to vote FOR the GOP. Never did. Never will.
I want to vote FOR progress, and I want my party to win, and deliver said progress so it does not lose it’s ass, taking us backward 10 steps next time too.
And that just isn’t gonna happen, unless we get our shit together economically.
Safety tip: Calling me a Russian, trump supporter, etc… is laughable.
Go ahead, laugh. I am. 😀
Edit: some of you are angry, and either are directing it at me, or it’s with me.
All good. This stuff just isn’t pretty. I get that.June 16, 2018 at 2:30 pm #37527
Bottom line: it comes down to idealism vs. pragmatism.
Missing, you’re an ideologue. You’re not interested in whether is something is possible – you just want it, because you feel it’s right, so therefore it must happen.
I’m reminded of an old Monty Python sketch I saw again recently: Mr. Ron Obvious (of Neepsend) (Terry Jones) was going to jump the English Channel. When asked about the physical improbability of this feat by a reporter, he responded (paraphrasing his manager): when you are several miles out over the channel, your inclination is to stay in the air.
Idealists want to jump 26 miles across the English Channel. There is no point in telling them of the physical limits – THEY WANT TO JUMP THE CHANNEL! Because it’s their right – and anyway, it’s super important. Yes, you could fly…or take a boat, but jumping yourself is free, and you won’t get wet. So don’t lecture me about GRAVITY!!!
Pragmatists want to cross the channel too, but they realize that jumping is impossible. Some sort of compromise is required: pay for a plane ticket, build a tunnel under the channel so you can drive or take a train. Idealists ridicule them for being “defeatists” and corporate sell-outs. It’s not fair that someone will PROFIT from a flight or boat across the channel – don’t you see that jumping across is MY RIGHT???
The goal itself is used to argue against the physical impossibilities obvious to a pragmatist.
Ideologues don’t have a good track record of achievement on the left in US history. Right-wing ideologues have used lies to succeed (“tax cuts pay for themselves.”). The left-wing achievements in policy like Medicare and Social Security have happened in bursts at opportune times, not through idealists working to elect people to support their agenda; FDR got Social Security and some good New Deal programs (and many bad ones) passed in the depths of the Great Depression, with huge majorities in Congress and desperate people willing to endorse just about anything. LBJ got Medicare and Medicaid through through arm twisting in Congress – pragmatism, not idealism – after his huge 1964 election in that also swelled a liberal majority in Congress (for a few years).
I wish some of the ideologues would at least try to read some history and learn from it, instead of pretending they are the first ones to have the idea of reforming things and achieving lofty goals. Certain things in human nature and politics are like gravity in trying to jump the channel: just not going to happen, no matter how much you want to deny they exist.June 16, 2018 at 2:53 pm #37528
It is entirely possible to begin the process of treating one another better economically just as we have been doing socially.
I also think it’s entirely possible to get better party leadership.
If we made the commit to health care as human right, and we picked something, say M4A, getting there would take a decade. Maybe more.
It’s the direction and priorities at issue, and all that garbage you just wrote about “RIGHT NOW” is a strawman, and you’ve done that a few times now too. Pretty useless. Laughable, frankly.
The line is UNITY to defeat Trump. Yeah, OK, so where is the economic UNITY?
Maybe some of us really don’t care about Trump as much as we say we do. I feel that is entirely true.
I also feel he’s being used as leverage to continue failed policy, “shock doctrine” style too.
Maybe giving a shit about your fellow Americans isn’t worth defeating Trump.
If that’s true, we deserve that ass.June 16, 2018 at 2:56 pm #37529
I think you have just underlined my point above. You made absolutely no reference at all to a practical way to achieve anything – just the need to do so, as if that were all that is required to achieve it.June 16, 2018 at 3:36 pm #37532
Others have done that, and it’s not necessary I do that AT ALL.
Another strawman. I’ll start a collection.
Edit: You are completely right in that I’m not at all interested to learn more about how it’s better to continue failed economic policy.June 16, 2018 at 4:09 pm #37533
It’s not “necessary” unless you want to make a convincing case for real change. You could make the same unconvincing case for why you should jump the English Channel. But for some pie-in-the-sky fantasy? No worries. Personally, I prefer to live in reality and see real improvements to people’s lives, not advocate for things that will never happen.June 16, 2018 at 4:11 pm #37534
When a clear majority of Americans are in trouble economically, and we’ve got up and coming generations experiencing the same, that’s about all the case we need for real change.
For a person who prefers “real improvements”, you have a very funny way of showing it.
The “real improvements” have centered on smaller and smaller, minority percentages of Americans going on 40 years now.
Case made.June 16, 2018 at 4:18 pm #37535
(Shrug) I prefer real improvements to people’s lives over fantasies that will happen. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.June 16, 2018 at 5:07 pm #37536
Dude, I completely agree!
So let us do that. We haven’t for some time now, and that tends to add right up and here we are.
It is not good.
It can be said this way:
Heading toward an overall lower standard of living, or heading toward a better one.
At present, only a minority of us are moving toward better. The majority of us are moving toward worse. And a pretty ugly and growing slice of those are worse than most of us want to talk about too.
Patching it up here and there only moves problems around. In the micro sense, yes. We can point to one of those and say good or improvement happened.
In the macro sense, we really cannot say that, and we need to.
This kind of thing is rooted in good ideas too.
Being FOR things, not just against the very worst so we can call decline good.
Our current party vision, strategy, policy is not “as good as it gets”, and arguably not even all that good. It is just not the GOP.
Flat out, we can do better as a party, and that leadership will bring us to doing better as a people.
There is not a damn thing wrong, fantasy, idealistic, or even unreasonable about that.
And there is wonder what happened, 1000 plus seats down?
Add to that fear, blame and shame, as if?
This discussion is just sad. Don’t expect big wins on any of this garbage. We may well be in real trouble, and that’s no joke.
Deserving Trump is no joke either.
If we cannot actually be bothered to bring a clear, brighter path to people, there will be no real surprise when the people fail to respond. We have already seen what happens when they don’t. More of that coming.
Honestly, you probably should have some real conversations with ordinary Americans more. I remain convinced at least half our party really has no idea what is currently happening. They are fine, what is not to like? Besides, “those other people are to blame, not us.”
And I’m not talking about the GOP making it worse either. Just the steady decline in progress. Very large numbers of people Ill equipped to live at even these standards, and as they age up, we will definitely feel those ugly multipliers when they kick in, and if we do act then, as opposed to beginning that work now?
Maybe my grand kids will feel it. Maybe.June 16, 2018 at 5:48 pm #37538
KSKD, nobody here, left or right is buying your garbage.
People like you are why Trump is president, and YES I’m angry about it. And unforgiving. You have no right to bitch about the current affairs. Bernie bots were warned and ignored the warnings of what would happen if they acted like assholes all the way to the election.
And to claim I’m emailing Dan to get you banned? Save the banter! I’ve never emailed Dan to ban anyone, including some of the most repulsive posters we’ve seen over the years.June 16, 2018 at 6:09 pm #37541
Missing: “Honestly, you probably should have some real conversations with ordinary Americans more.”
When will YOU start having some of those conversations? Maybe it would help ground you in reality.June 16, 2018 at 6:34 pm #37542
Sorry Doug, but most of what Vit and Andrew are saying is true.
Bernie has zero chance in 2020. He should definitely push those items in his agenda with his remaining energy because he remains basically unknown outside the northeast except for a small following in the more liberal states. First, he’s too old. He’d be 79 before inauguration. Same with Joe Biden, but he’s got way more appeal to the voters in the rust belt. Still, he, like Bernie, can’t overcome father time.
I’m hoping Jeff Merkley runs. He’s exploring it. The Democrats need common sense, not someone too far to the left on key issues. Bernie has been labeled as such, although some of it is just a convenience for Republicans caught in his crosshairs. For the Democrats to win in 2020, they need to present someone that hasn’t been over-exposed to the main stream media which imposes preconceived notions on unknowing voters that don’t live around here. Merkley has taken on drumpf in the venue that matters most with drumpf supporters, Twitter.
The Democrats will not be successful if they run anyone really old, really far left, or connected to the Clintons in any way. It’s just a fact of life. Hopefully, the party as a whole will wake up and realize it and provide full support for the candidate. Vit is correct that had the Bernie voters supported Hillary, we’d not be in this mess, but it’s a moot point. Doug, you need to move on or present something new which you haven’t. You’ve dragged the same set of points across two threads (at least) for far too long. It’s boring. Boring! If Bernie declares, we can talk about it some more, but the fact remains he has no African American support. Without that, he has no chance. Some of his positions are far too left to win on the big stage and he can’t change them at this point or be labeled a flip flopper. Nope. No chance, and for now there is nothing more to say. We can talk about the Democrat’s agenda, and which candidates are for or against it, and what the polls say voters think, but this constant Bernie is the answer crap is growing old.
Edit add: Medicare for all, or the socialization of medical care, must evolve to succeed. Trying to ram it down the throats of middle America who have lost at every health care change undertaken, will fail because they are not going to support something the government runs as they’ve been screwed too many times by the GOP directly with policy under Dubya and drumpf and indirectly as they blocked and dismantled Obamacare.June 16, 2018 at 8:00 pm #37544
Where did I say Bernie was the answer?
He’s a fine politician. Hope he runs again, and win or lose, hope the movement toward that style of politics grows.
Like I wrote earlier. Either giving a shit about our fellow Americans is worth it or not.
Which is it?
Perhaps we do deserve Trump. I don’t believe that, but then again, I am in awe over the rationalizations, excuses, manipulations, straw men, personal attacks and more.
Here’s the hard truth:
I don’t care how tired you are.
To be perfectly frank, I’ve enjoyed the conversation. It’s been quite useful and appreciated.
Our party isn’t where it needs to be. And it’s not all that big of a club anymore either, both in terms of seats and percentage of voters.
A very significant fraction of Democrats, myself included, aren’t on board with the same old. It’s about 40 percent.
Here’s one thing I’m very interested in, both personally, and just as a matter of the body politic:
What is in this for the people not seeing progress?
The bad primary outcome isn’t something I’m going to bend on. That is a two way street.
When the politics are not well aligned with the voters, they just may not vote, and that fact appears to be very uncomfortable to all of you.
Was for me.
All I can say is, good. Lesson there to be learned.
Of the three things dominating that discussion, fear is legit. Most of us fear Trump and the GOP. Rightfully so.
The blame and shame?
Entirely useless. What matters is the votes to come and how best to get them.
And that is the hardest thing for many of us Democrats to understand. People just don’t have to support us. They have options, they all have a say.
I wrote laughter at stuff like, “those who [did x] have no right to [say y]”, because that shit is laughable, and ignorant. For all the talk of realities, that one seems very difficult.
Fact is, the law of the land says people do have a right to contribute to the political dialog no matter what their vote was. We are no special snowflakes.
You should all reconsider that one. It’s a very bad look, and for sure won’t do anything to improve on GOTV, which by the looks of things, may need to become a higher priority.
Merkley would be an excellent candidate. I hope he runs too. He does understand VOTE FOR as opposed to VOTE AGAINST. Good.
And look! Complete silence on the hard realities related to SCOTUS picks. Dems let the GOP get away with simply stealing one.
When is that not OK?
And there is bitching now about who Trump picked?
While that’s valid, and I agree, come on. The inability to be real about our own house doesn’t help us you know.
As for the points and threads, a few house cleaning points:
You don’t have to respond to anything you don’t want to. You have agency, use it.
If you expect me to take lame ass, laughable attacks my way, think again. You know better. Notice I’ve not returned any of those. I tend to respect my friends a bit more than that. Food for thought.
Finally, I’m not bothered. Not a care in the world. It’s been good, though pointed, conversation. High value.
Are you bothered?
Why exactly is that?June 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm #37545
Missing: “And look! Complete silence on the hard realities related to SCOTUS picks. Dems let the GOP get away with simply stealing one.”
I’m not sure what you mean. Do you not understand that the GOP controlled the Senate during Obama’s last two years in office?June 16, 2018 at 8:45 pm #37546
KSKD, why is nobody here buying the garbage Nina Turner talking points you keep putting forth?
We’re on the same team after all. Is there not someone here who is willing to stand up and say KSKD has the secret sauce?
You are like the leader of the “Find Bigfoot” campaign. So dedicated, yet such wrong direction.
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