February 3, 2015 at 9:21 pm #6173jerry1949Spectator
I think it was about getting $150,000.
But you can stand up for your beliefs without killing your opponents. Even if I agreed this couple was in the wrong, I would never agree that they should be financially ruined over it. Slap them on the wrist and make it hurt a little, and a warning that it will be worse next time. Instead they get a death sentence for speeding.
BTW, a plain cake is not an endorsement. Agreed. But it’s a different story if they participate in the message, such as having to top the cake with a same sex couple.February 3, 2015 at 11:21 pm #6177
They were not setup, and there was no nefarious intent here. The couple wanted a cake, got judged and turned away and spoke up as citizens are within their rights to do.
This is a FINE. If so, the State gets the money. If it’s a judgement of some kind, then the couple may see some money.
I’m quite sure they would much rather have been treated like ordinary people and got their cake.
As for bankrupting, I’m also sure the bakers can make a payment plan, or elect to do some time, just like every other criminal who breaks the law gets to do.February 3, 2015 at 11:26 pm #6178
Notice, they didn’t seem to get much business after the event.
They did it to themselves. They were already out of business, retreating to home before this decision came through.
As for hand slaps?
They aren’t working. Haven’t been working.
We’ve still got people who believe bigotry is OK. We’ve still got people believing racism is OK.
And the Tea Party is outright running on a theocracy platform.
None of that is acceptable.
People will only be nice for so long. That time is over, and it’s time for everybody to grow up and treat their peers reasonably.
The bakers are not the victim here. They are the example of why everybody else needs to think long and hard about how much sense it really makes to attempt to make other peoples choices for them.
Answer: Makes no sense. Mind your own business.February 3, 2015 at 11:34 pm #6179
“But it’s a different story if they participate in the message, such as having to top the cake with a same sex couple.”
Nope. A cake is just a cake. Inclusive. Words are just words, the little figures are just figures, and the whole thing is a work for hire, business.
The bakers went into business under license. They did not comply with the obligations associated with that license, and now they aren’t in business anymore because they could not differentiate business from their bigotry.
And here’s the fun part.
ANY savvy business owner could have gotten out of that cake, or worked it out so they and the client are happy. It’s not hard.
These clowns wanted it known WHY, and that’s where the law comes into play.
So they thought they would send a message. Truth is they did.
Heard loud and clear.
What happened next was a majority of their prospects really aren’t up for bigots and very likely chose not to do business.
And either there just aren’t enough bigots willing to step up to make the business viable, or they were not willing to put their money where their mouth is.
Even more interesting!
Bakery products are often gifts of note. Birthdays, special occasions, and the like.
With most people not feeling good about the bigotry, their business prospects shrink considerably as nobody really wants a gift with that ugly associated with it, do they?
We may find the State Of Oregon not assessing the full fine. They got beat up in the court of public opinion.
And whatever the decision is, Oregon has options they can employ to work through it.
Question is whether or not they can do that as a business, given the reputation they’ve got now, or they have to suck it up and just go to work, etc…
All on them though. They just didn’t have to be shitty.February 4, 2015 at 1:52 am #6184molochParticipant
Aaron and Melissa Klein were set-up. Pure and simple.
Those who demand tolerance are the least tolerant of all.February 4, 2015 at 6:15 am #6185duxruleParticipant
Set up for what?February 4, 2015 at 6:40 am #6186Deane JohnsonParticipant
My take on this might be a bit different. Why not just make the cake for them, take their money, and get on with life.
Mixing political views and business is bad business.February 4, 2015 at 6:57 am #6187duxruleParticipant
#1 for Deane this morning.February 4, 2015 at 8:33 am #6188AmusParticipant
As far as being set up;
While I’m sure they didn’t envision a hefty fine, I think these people set themselves up as “victims” for the cause.
They got their 15 minutes making the rounds playing the victim card.
Now it’s time to pay the price.
the religious right has concocted a new strategy to squelch religious freedom: By redefining “religious freedom” to mean its opposite.February 4, 2015 at 8:57 am #6190
Yeah Deane. Totally valid.
Business is business. Make ’em a cake.
That’s what the law is about. Either you are doing business or not. If you are, do it, don’t fuck with people.
@Amus: I’m reading that now. It’s called dominionism.
“Religious freedom and separation of church and state have always been hated concepts to the religious right. Indeed, it’s fair to say that the religious right exists to fight any legal or cultural support for people who don’t want their narrow definition of Christianity foisted on them. From objecting to gay marriage to trying to wedge creationism in schools, the religious right exists as a political movement for the purpose of stripping away religious freedom and establishing their religious beliefs as the dominant organizing force in law, politics and culture.”February 4, 2015 at 8:58 am #6191
“So why then are we hearing all these people who live their lives attacking religious freedom complaining all the time that “religious freedom” is under attack from liberals?”
Because it’s about dominion. They see a free country as a place where they are free to establish religious dominion. Simple as that.
I liked the piece, but I think the author is dodging that one.February 4, 2015 at 9:00 am #6193February 4, 2015 at 9:21 am #6195
Yes… somewhere indeed. It’s right there, just so easy to mention…February 4, 2015 at 10:07 am #6198BroadwayParticipant
>>Those who demand tolerance are the least tolerant of all.
yes, not tolerant of their beliefs/convictions/views.
Bad law Oregon…bad law.February 4, 2015 at 10:15 am #6199jerry1949Spectator
I’m still unclear about rights, if any, to refuse to include a message:
The KKK is kool
Gay marriage is not immoral
Same sex marriage is not real marriage
Must the baker include those messages if required by the customer?
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