KKPZ and KUIK Updates

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  • #50321
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    I stand corrected, but it’s moot. I read that as 2.5 kW. The bottom line for 620 turned out to be poorer coverage because the towers are way too short, too close together and their greed to sell the land way too big. Most of that extra power is wasted over the ocean, anyway. 620 has less of an international issue because 620 CKRM is quite distant, so raising power wasn’t a huge issue.

    http://nf8m.com/pattern_maps/current/NIGHTTIME-UNLIMITED/NIGHTTIME-UNLIMITED_620KHz-1.html

    After spending some additional time, it looks like the main issue in raising 1330 power is protecting Canada CJYM 1330 at night. Class B limit would be 50 kW but 1330 is pretty crowded. The current 1330 has four fairly deep nulls, at 30º, 85º, 155º and 210º. Three of those nulls are protecting specific stations, the fourth just being a result of the pattern creation. The nulls at 30 and 210 are augmented, meaning the operational amount of RF in the null could already be exceeding what the theoretical is.

    https://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/c521afba2f3f4f88a090c1b6063ebeb7-18679.pdf

    You can file to make these higher measusrents accepted. This is a really old D.A. (1948, right after KALE sold to KPOJ) originally designed before modern computer methods were designed and accepted for use. A lot of stuff could be grandfathered in. Rules and acceptable methodology has changed since it was designed, and the U.S. – Canada agreement has been rewritten several times in the last 70+ years. I read through the 1330 History Cards and there is little there that is helpful.

    http://nf8m.com/pattern_maps/current/NIGHTTIME-UNLIMITED/NIGHTTIME-UNLIMITED_1330KHz-1.html

    1330 continues to be operated under an STA because their measured fields are out of whack. They blame it on a local Tri Met comm tower reradiating their signal, but the general age of the antenna design and system opens that theory up to question.

    All in all, and due to the engineering expense of any feasibility study and construction permit process and ultimately construction, all of which could gobble up the proceeds from the sale of the land.

    I don’t think anyone is going to pay a lot for this station, certainly not enough to make diplexing an affordable option after the sale. Even if protections could be met. It doesn’t look like city grade would be a problem, but unlikely they could raise power since the KEX array is not designed for 1330’s needs. It is not unusual for diplexing and pattern design optimization on a pattern not designed for the frequency be added can be just as expensive as starting from scratch.

    It’s not going anywhere other than possibly dark.

    Look around. That’s what’s happening. Buy the station cheap, sell the land, keep the money and use a lot less of it to pay the attorneys to make it go dark permanently. In fact, the FCC may make pledging to cleaning up the pattern performance a requirement of sale.

    Sources:

    AM Antenna Systems
    W.C. Alexander Director of Engineering
    Crawford Broadcasting Company

    http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/Eng_Files/AM%20Antenna%20Systems.pdf

    AM Broadcast Facilities
    Ben Dawson
    Hatfield & Dawson Consulting Engineers

    http://www.sbe24.org/WBA-SBE-Shows/archives/Clinic2017/Dawson-2017.pdf

    Note: I did not consider 2nd adjacent issues.

    I first visited the 1330 facility in 1976 when Jim Heim was C.E. I visited a lot in the early 80s when I used to head up to Mt. Scott to check the oil and kick the tires of Magic 107. Byron Swanson was C.E. of KUPL at the time. The doghouse wood was so rotted out you could easily put your hand right through it. Byron told me KPOJ moved the existing KALE towers (the outside two) complete with the original doghouses and they then built the center tower, a monster if you’ve ever stood directly under it. Then after the big fire, the phasor cabinet had to be rebuilt and much of the transmission line and the iso coupler (the goodie that lets you mount an FM antenna on a radiating AM tower) replaced. So the connective tissue isn’t ancient, but the towers, especially the outside two of the three, are really old. I’ll bet no one has ever tightened the bolts on them since 1948. I wonder how intact the ground system is as well. Also worth noting, the Tri Met comm tower nearby is not the only potentially reradiating issue on the mountain. The crest of the mountain (over by the old 106.7 site, a mere two blocks away) has become quite an antenna farm.

    #50353
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    The above post was my original response on the previous page down near the bottom where Semoochie pointed out my error. The system gobbled it and I could not retrieve it and it was too late to try and rewrite all of it. Dan found it today and posted it above. A few additional points, mostly historical in nature.

    Note: If you ever include more than 3 links in a post, it may get bounced. It shows you posted but there’s no post there. Then if you take out the 4th link and resubmit it, it bounces you as a repetitive post. Sometimes you can rearrange paragraphs or add a line at the top of the post, but sometimes that doesn’t work. Dan knows.

    #50356
    mwdxer1
    Participant

    Wow! That brings back a lot of memories…The name Byron Swanson, the CE at the old KISN in the 70s and later on KPOJ/KKPL. Is he still around? He signed my old KISN QSL from the 70s. A really nice guy. On a tour of KKPL, I think Byron talked about the old KALE towers.
    Remember the old Dave Jack station, KLIQ 1290? That signed off after the owner got 1640 on the air. I think the tower was at Oak’s Park. Friend Brad Eaton worked there in the 70s doing talk radio.

    #50357
    Broadway
    Participant

    OK…how about across 205 SSW to the mentioned 1520 AM / previous 1290 location. Tower placements looks straight / and straight shot towards downtown?

    #50360
    semoochie
    Participant

    It will be a shame to see 1330 go. It used to have a competitive signal and where I broke into radio!

    #50364
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    “Wow!”

    Both Byron and Jim Heim have posted here in the past.

    Yeah, I only met Dave once. He was buddies with Howard Slobodin who owned KVAN 1480 back in the 70s. I worked there and met him when he was visiting Howard. I knew Joe Allen, the engineer that worked for Dave at KLIQ. I was at his funeral back around 1990 when I filed an application for 105.9. My business partner also knew Joe and Dave.

    The 1520 array is probably too north south oriented. The existing 1330 array is pointing more west than north, but the 1520 array is probably pointed more north than west. This presents a challenge to get the nulls to fall in the directions that are needed. Nothings impossible, but the direction the line of towers is oriented to makes a big impact on the directionality of the pattern. You can vary powers and phase to each tower, effecting the depth and width of the null, but the azimuth of the null can’t be anywhere close to the same direction as where you’re trying to put city grade unless you’re really really close or 50 kW.
    Not to even mention how short those 1520 towers are. That makes it even harder.
    Send Hatfield and Dawson a big check. Big Check. They’ll figure it out. That Erik Swanson guy is pretty sharp.

    #50365
    Borderblaster
    Participant

    “shame to see 1330 go”
    It ain’t going anywhere, new owners, new call letters, new format
    https://i.imgflip.com/5625i1.jpg

    #50367
    semoochie
    Participant

    What about the 1080/910 site? It’s going the right direction. They probably can’t get more than 5KW but does it really matter, at this point?

    #50373
    chessyduck
    Participant

    The KOOR 1010 stick could likely handle KDZR

    Question – What about KXTG’s four-tower arrangement. Could the 750 array hold any promise for KKPZ?

    #50374
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    Probably not. Significantly further away from Portland and not significantly further from Canada. I don’t think 5 kW from Damascus is sufficient. The towers are probably too tall lending to increased skywave. Are those towers still in a square like they were at Clackamas? That doesn’t help any.

    #50376
    semoochie
    Participant

    It looks like exactly the same configuration as 82nd and Sunnyside Road. You can see them from the Estacada exit off I-205.

    #50390
    chessyduck
    Participant

    Concerning Mt Scott,besides KMJK and KISN-LP were there other Portland FMs up there at one time? I am thinking KFBW or KNRK?

    #50391
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    NRK started there on the square tower adjacent to the road slightly south. Back then 98.7 was KUPL-FM 98.5 and on the top of the center tower which is a monster compared to the outer two. AM 1330 at the time was KUPL. Around the corner on the north slope was Magic 107 on their own tower along with two short towers for a host of business users and the U.S. Army. There’s additional stuff now at that site plus a second water tank. The old water tank had antennae on it back then, too.

    #50392
    Steve Naganuma
    Participant

    Andy, correct me if I am wrong. Didn’t KMJK have an STL hop on a private homeonwer’s property on the west slope of Mt. Scott to get programming from Barbur Blvd to Oaks Park (1290am)? Seems to me, the KMJK site on the north slope did not have line of sight to Oaks Park. It would not have been a big structure, but still a Mt. Scott fun fact.

    #50393
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    By the time Dave Jack handed the keys to 1290 to Victor, I had moved over to KATU. I was, however, involved to a small extent in the early conversations about that. In the beginning, Dave wanted to use the KMJK tower to broadcast the AM, but I nixed that early on. The tower is too short and the engineering expense would be too high to convert the tower to AM and isolate the 106.7 antenna. That was the last I remember when I was actually still employed there, but I do recall later conversations with Pete Lett. I think they used Pete’s Dad’s house as a relay point. Since the signal was so strong up there, they just used an off air pick and fed it into a microwave link from Pete’s house down to Oaks Park. I don’t think the actual Magic 107 STL microwave was involved. You might ask Pete or Mike Brown who replaced me as C.E. at Magic, although this might be from a period of time between me leaving and Mike arriving, when Magic had no engineer.

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