King: Voting for Bloomberg is the line I cannot cross

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Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 39 total)
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  • #44243
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Lol, and you expect Black people to show up for Bloomberg?

    Trying to blame me for talking about that harsh reality?

    Hilarious!

    #44244
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    I tell you what stings:

    You need those pissed off minority voters. Badly.

    You also need your comforts and security too Vitalogy.

    Watching you basically try and sell the idea of them voting for more oppression, because the specific oppressor gets to you personally, is very funny.

    #44245
    Chico
    Participant

    You guys can argue all you want about revolution vs. evolution. The new Democratic party vs. the Old Guard etc. I would vote for a potted plant at this point. And so will a huge number of people. Just you wait. Hillary was a well qualified but terrible candidate, and still got 60 million to pull the lever. Pete, Mike, Joe, Liz, Bernie. Any one of them will get 68 Million. Just you wait.

    Well, maybe not Liz.

    #44246
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    If you are right, then there is absolutely no worry about Bernie and progressives, is there?

    You may be. Not a bad thing.

    Yeah, Liz fucked up. I really don’t see Bloomberg winning, though his team has produced GREAT Trump ads. Brutal.

    #44247
    edselehr
    Participant

    Vit: “How’s that worked out so far for your goals?”
    missing_kskd: “Great! No joke.”

    I think the kids ripped from their parents due to Trump’s family separation policy would disagree…

    …also the family of Jamal Khashoggi, who know Trump has no interest in holding his killers accountable…

    …also the 3.1 million people losing access to needed nutrition due to Trump’s SNAP rollbacks…

    …also immigrants denied livesaving medical treatments because Trump forced them to deport.

    Missing, your “big picture policy” view of the world doesn’t account for the real individual people suffering and dying under the policies Trump is implementing TODAY. You seem pretty cavalier about how his presidency has affected their lives.

    And don’t forget the courts, which have been wrecked for at least a generation due to 1) conservative justices that will roll back progressive gains over the last 50 years, and 2) incompetent judges being placed in benches across America, who will render awful decisions regardless of ideology.

    Most reasonably affluent middle class people haven’t felt Trump’s presidency very directly yet, except for stagnent increase in quality of life and some tax changes (both positively and negatively, depending on who they are). I know my day-to-day life has been largely unaffected by Trump so far. Should I call his presidency “Great!” because it reveals his true colors, and *might* open up America’s eyes to the damaging effects of Republican governance? Who has suffered in order to reveal that incompetence? Is their suffering “worth it” to you? Has their suffering been “Great”?

    Your “Great! No joke.” comment sounds pretty cold to me.

    #44248
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    Fear blame and shame. You repeat that a lot. Is this a Nina Turner talking point?

    Also, I’m not even sure I understand the meaning of said talking point.

    #44249
    edselehr
    Participant

    Vit: “How’s that worked out so far for your goals?”

    missing_kskd: “Great! No joke.”

    I think the kids ripped from their parents due to Trump’s family separation policy would disagree…

    …also the family of Jamal Khashoggi, who know Trump has no interest in holding his killers accountable…

    …also the 3.1 million people losing access to needed nutrition due to Trump’s SNAP rollbacks…

    …also immigrants denied livesaving medical treatments because Trump forced them to deport.

    Missing, your “big picture policy” view of the world doesn’t account for the real individual people suffering and dying under the policies Trump is implementing TODAY. You seem pretty cavalier about how his presidency has affected their lives.

    And don’t forget the courts, which have been wrecked for at least a generation due to 1) conservative justices that will roll back progressive gains over the last 50 years, and 2) incompetent judges being placed in benches across America, who will render awful decisions regardless of ideology.

    Most reasonably affluent middle class people haven’t felt Trump’s presidency very directly yet, except for stagnent increase in quality of life and some tax changes (both positively and negatively, depending on who they are). I know my day-to-day life has been largely unaffected by Trump so far. Should I call his presidency “Great!” because it reveals his true colors, and *might* open up America’s eyes to the damaging effects of Republican governance? Who has suffered in order to reveal that incompetence? Is their suffering “worth it” to you? Has their suffering been “Great”?

    Your “Great! No joke.” comment sounds pretty cold to me.

    #44250
    Deane Johnson
    Participant

    Noise today that Bloomberg is testing the water on having Hillary as running mate. What will that do to the outcome?

    #44255
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Actually no, it’s entirely original.

    I do not generally employ talking points like that when I’m entertaining real conversation. And that particular device, along with a few others, have been damn effective over the last couple years.

    Here is what I mean:

    Let’s take blame first:

    You are attempting to get me to accept blame for the actions of others, and you are doing that based on manufactured reasons that have little to do with why people did what they did.

    I am not going to accept said blame. Your basis is not valid, not even weak, just invalid. Your standing is poor, though being upset at the current President is definitely valid. I share all of that, but unlike you, am not going to attempt to go blaming people with no basis, nor understanding of said people, why, etc…

    You are also trying to assign blame generally to a group of people you do not understand well at all. “Bernie Bros”, for example. The majority behind the movement, and this was very seriously true in 2016, is younger progressive WOMEN. They are also running for office in high numbers, and winning seats. There are a number of basic misunderstandings in play, all of which I’m happy to discuss at length. But that one will suffice for now.

    You yourself said people should vote their own best interests. I happen to agree!

    Which leads me to shame.

    There is absolutely no shame in rejecting oppressive, toxic politics. That’s what democracy is. Now, people refusing Clinton hurt you, and many others. Fair enough! Totally valid.

    However, they will say they’ve been hurt for decades, and why should they continue to vote for more of the same, just so a minority can continue to live well, and when does that all end exactly? Millennials lie at the core of all this too. While it’s true the impact of the last few decades is not limited to Millennials, the fact is they as a group are looking at us, Gen X, Boomers and the economic crush they are experiencing and frankly?

    They are pissed, with 40 percent of them outright rejecting capitalism, and a solid majority rejecting the establishment politics. And they have a solid basis and more than enough standing to do that!

    Their basis is centered on their cost and risk exposure greatly exceeds their income, while opportunity to improve is nothing like we saw. Given the current state of affairs, their standing to demand better isn’t debatable.

    All that is also totally valid, and you have yet to recognize any of it, nor the very real agency people have in these things.

    Mix in the more or less endless claims to laziness, low worth, etc… and that only amplifies their take on things, and serves to unify others struggling with them, NOT US, and our politics and perspective. (I say US, here meaning the perspective I had until a year or two after watching the ACA go more the way people like Deane said than anything I said. Party failure, made clear. Unavoidable.)

    Until you do get some understanding, your attempts at high ground are laughable and preposterous!

    Which leads me to fear.

    Many, myself included, fear what can happen with more Trump. We’ve just seen the GOP could give two shits. No surprise there, right?

    We’ve also seen the DEMS not give two shits. They’ve basically not fought much at all. I do not agree with the GOP, but they actually know how to take no shit and get things done. Dems are painfully inept right now, and that’s due to taking the same big money, while trying to claim they are for the people, somehow, hand wavy style.

    The reason for that is money. Andy just referenced it, and basically came out and said, “that’s just how it is.”

    Until recently, I would agree with that assessment. But, around the globe, unrest is escalating, and in some places is severe, and it’s all about the money, it’s impact on governments including our own, and people wanting to end the cycle going on for decades now.

    The French are extremely likely to break Macron at this point. They’ve been at it for well over a year. Look around at International news. Lots of peoples are pinned in a similar fashion and are not having it.

    You have your fear, or let’s call it concern if you want, and I have mine, and many do.

    And here is some perspective for you:

    The downtrodden people do not see it the same way AT ALL. In 2016, their numbers were fairly small. Today, that is not true. Numbers are much higher now. High enough to be difficult to ignore, though many continue to do just that.

    Vote Blue no matter who, because Trump is a fear argument. It’s straight up too, no bullshit.

    Completely understandable!

    I am not sure you understand that I understand that. Trust me, I do.

    The trouble comes from people who do not see this in the same terms. And there are way more of them than many want to recognize too. They want the cycle broken. And literally nothing else worked.

    They fear more Trump, Clinton, Bloomberg, oligarchs basically. They do not see how their lives improve, nor their future made more bright given status-quo politics remain the dominant norm.

    To them?

    We, and I am again stating that from the party loyal perspective I held until recently, and am speaking from your basic position, are asking them to vote for more of the same so that a minority can continue to live well, and for a promise to get to them, someday, later, etc…

    They also see it in brutally simple terms:

    Why ask us to vote for more of the same that got us Trump, because Trump?

    And they are not wrong in that basic question.

    They know Clinton could have won. Should have too.

    And had Clinton done the work, even the basic work to lie to people like Trump did, she would have won, but instead she took the basic authoritarian position you are right now and lost.

    Lost because expecting votes from people who do not feel they are getting representation isn’t exactly wise.

    Now, some feel doing that is necessary, because “this is just how it is.”

    Fair enough!

    But, are those people sufficient to win elections consistently enough to avoid the UGLY GOP getting it’s way?

    Nope.

    We’ve all seen that, party down well over 1000 seats during Obama, epic loss to Trump, and in these primaries we’ve already seen big money party establishment fuckery in Iowa and other efforts from the DCCC, Clinton, DNC, and most recently an anonymous Beat Bernie PAC, operating anonymously, because they basically admit to getting owned by people like me asking hard policy questions they do not have answers to, because big money.

    Now, because you will say TL;DR: …

    #44257
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Let me make it brutal:

    Progressives working with Bernie have made a political machine today that would have beaten Clinton straight up in 2016. We can win solid against Trump. We hold the top metrics across the board too. Total front runner campaign, with an exemplary org structure, ground game, etc…

    I am definitely on board with that effort, and am on board for policy reasons, anti-corruption reasons.

    Most importantly, I am on board because doing the same thing that got us Trump, because Trump, is not how we defeat Trump!

    Presenting the American people with a compelling policy vision is how we unify them and defeat Trump.

    Why should anyone give two shits what you have to say, when it’s obvious you hold your self-interest well above anything else, even Trump?

    Secondly, why should anyone vote on a party basis, when said party holds it’s self interest well above anything else, including Trump?

    We’ve entered a different political time man. It’s a raw fight now. People vs big money politics.

    I’m going with the people. Bite me.

    #44260
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Lastly, I do not hold a grudge. I know you. I know others here. You all know me, or at least you should.

    These are tough political times. You are forgiven in advance. Just know I’m not taking any shit over getting after better for ALL Americans. None.

    We as people, get to do that. As intended. Law of the land.

    I really do value real conversation, and have modeled that over the years to the point where that should not even be a consideration. With me, it’s not.

    Just saying 😀

    #44262
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Noise today that Bloomberg is testing the water on having Hillary as running mate. What will that do to the outcome?

    LOL, it means Bloomberg would lose his ass. I am not entirely sure he’s got a running mate available to prevent that, but am also entirely sure Clinton is the absolute worst possible selection.

    Basically, Dems would be running a Republican, along with a two time, very widely disliked loser.

    It’s actually hard to find another ticket that so completely expresses the idea of running on more of what gave us Trump, because Trump, to defeat Trump.

    Should he announce that early? It may well help Bernie and progressives get the nomination.

    #44263
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    “I would vote for a potted plant at this point. And so will a huge number of people. ”

    Exactly. A second term election is a referendum on the incumbent. Always has been and always will be.

    drumpf will lose to whomever. Much of the discussion here is revolving around personalities and campaign promises. There’s no common sense in that.

    Polls? Can be useful but as we have seen in recent days, it all comes with a grain of salt.

    The Republicans lost the house. Their failure to allow witnesses in the impeachment trial is going to cost them the Senate.

    Bloomberg never had a chance. Grabbing the news cycle is not the same as getting delegates.

    Probably a brokered convention. Bernie will endorse Biden. missing will stay home but Chico, me and millions of others will vote drumpf out of office.

    Remember, drumpf is the favorite.

    Who the D candidate is is not the most important factor. It’s the anti drumpf vote. The polls will be close until the economy starts to spin out of control. That’s a matter of when, not if. drumpf is so emboldened right now it’s hard to predict how much more trouble he will get into. Watch and listen.

    #44264
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    I think it’s extremely unwise to underestimate Trump.

    Everyone in this for Trump will show up. Everyone.

    Dems can get more of the pie, given a good policy alignment, but they will struggle with who shows up.

    Also, when are Dems going to stop talking up Trump and start talking about that compelling policy vision that people want to vote for?

    Vote us, because Trump, isn’t going to do it. That’s true no matter who the nominee is.

    #44271
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    I fear 4 more years of Trump more than anything. The difference between me and you is that I’m in the camp of making the odds as good as possible he gets defeated. I don’t care who the nominee is, just as long as they give us the best odds.

    I don’t underestimate Trump at all. You are correct that every single voter in the right will show up and vote even if they don’t like him.

    Will the Bernie Bros show up when Bernie loses again?

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