It is time to reckon with Clinton Democrats

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  missing_kskd 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #41412

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    And, remember in an election there are three options:

    Vote major party
    Vote other
    No vote.

    It is on the candidates to sell why a vote for them makes sense.

    People may simply not vote for them.

    That is the dynamic Clinton ignored and she lost. That is also why Dems lost over 1000 seats during Obama too.

    Frame it how you want to frame it. Fact is, solid VOTE FOR policy is the most sure win. The less it is about that, the higher the risks are.

    Continuing to ignore, marginalize, talk down to, shame, blame, progressives is a great way to improve the chance of a loss to Trump.

    #41413

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “Neither of those candidates are even reasonable and prudent economic lefties.”

    Great – so you prefer Trump to a Harris or O’Rourke who would raise taxes on the wealthy, appoint liberal judges, etc. because they don’t share your vision of Socialist Utopia. To you, Trump is preferable to any candidate not extreme to the left, because he’ll hopefully (for you) make things worse so more people might find your Socialist Utopia a desperate alternative.

    You can deny it – but then you contradict yourself later.

    Why not just admit that you have a purity test for candidates? If they don’t believe in Socialist Utopia, they aren’t pure enough – better to have Mike Pence or Donald Trump instead to make things worse!

    #41414

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    I do not believe those two can win at present. I have indicated why they will have a problem winning.

    They could improve on all that, and I suggest they do.

    I did not think Clinton was going to win either, and for very similar reasons, plus her baggage.

    “trump is worse” is not a winning message. Sorry. We already played that, remember?

    It is not a winning message, because status quo politics leaves too many Americans out. No net gain for them = no or a protest vote. That is absolutely going to happen.

    And that is true whether or not others will see definitely worse with Trump too.

    The point is, the people no and protest voting are no longer interested in continuing to be left out so a minority can continue to live well.

    Of course I am going to vote for candidates based on their platforms and overall behavior. Big money centric = very unappealing.

    Lots of people do! That is the whole VOTE FOR thing!

    Hello, now you may be getting it.

    My bar is lower than some. Harris is likely unable to cross it. Beto maybe. Others vary.

    Not doing blue no matter who this time around. Sorry. You know why too.

    I care about what you think about that exactly as much as you care about policy aimed at ALL Americans.

    That is, once again, why fear, blame and shame are not effective. I very strongly suggest you reconsider that, as I have before.

    Tell me why I would want to vote for candidates. And tell me how ALL Americans stand to benefit.

    Going from the failed outcome at the end of Obama to this shitty Trump time, and then back to more failed politics, likely to generate more incremental decline, is not better for ALL Americans.

    That is just more of the same cyclic politics that got us here, and that made both a Trump and Sanders possible.

    Breaking that cycle matters. Who will move to do that?

    Sanders very clearly will.

    #41415

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “I do not believe those two can win at present. I have indicated why they will have a problem winning.”

    You know what? If people don’t vote for them, THEY WON’T WIN. You and your fellow Bernie Bros can help them not win by not voting for them. This is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    #41416

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    To you, Trump is preferable to any candidate not extreme to the left, because he’ll hopefully (for you) make things worse so more people might find your Socialist Utopia [preferable].

    Trump is not preferable.

    Again, this is about large numbers of people no longer willing to vote for politics that do not speak to them, or are not representative of them, so that other people continue to see politics that do speak to them and are more representative.

    When someone is left out, they aren’t actually involved. There is a very real question as to why they should bother.

    When the majority is well served, those sentiments can be characterized in the negative way most of you have put here, and doing that makes sense. I myself participated in all of that in the past.

    Today, the majority is simply not well served. As we began to lose a lot of elections, and economic progress simply did not appear, and worse, very large numbers of people saw real regression, I began to question party policy seriously.

    That’s the difference, and that is precisely why I support these efforts aimed at meaningful reform.

    That is also why the fear, blame and shame bullshit is ineffective. It does not carry any real weight with our national priorities so far removed from the growing and significant issues we face.

    I could say, no worries, blue no matter who, and it does not change the dynamics in play.

    Worse, failure to recognize and act on the dynamics, largely driven by millennials and general demographic changes going on right now, means both higher risk elections and more tepid party performance.

    None of that makes any sense. So I an being brutally honest and real.

    I cast a Clinton vote and got fuck all, and casting that vote was a pure vote against vote too. Vote against Trump.

    Not doing that again this cycle.

    And again, I care about your thoughts on all that exactly as much as you care about ALL Americans, labor, etc.

    It may well be people can’t see common ground. That is gonna suck, because another 4 of Trump, assuming he can avoid growing legal hassles, and even if he does, hello President Pence who I think just might even be worse, is all going to suck.

    I do not want it to suck.

    To be ultra clear, avoiding suckage has nothing to do with just vote blue no matter who, and it has nothing to do with that because indie voters are over 40 percent of us today, biased young too.

    And that leads me back to the choice we all have to make.

    If it is about status quo politics, and should we not find ourselves able to get behind some perfectly reasonable and appropriate policy basics (arguably unpopular with big business), our chance of a win is marginal at best

    If it is about solid economic reform, not just warmed over center right we have seen to date, our chance of a win is pretty great.

    Tons of young voters aging in. They have seen some real ugly and can totally power through some Trump. They want real economic reform, change.

    I do not blame them one bit, and am in full support. Take it left economically and unabashedly.

    Choose as you will.

    Losses won’t be “the russians” either. Never was.

    It will be failure to garner the winning votes, rooted in general failure to represent ALL Americans well enough to win.

    And that is “the work”; namely, representing people, necessary to succeed, promote the general welfare, in our system of representative government.

    And there is not a damn thing extreme in the progressive policy platform, Sanders platform, by any meaningful, global measure.

    For years, always tacking center right has dragged us way off in the weeds. There is no surprise in the right getting more and more of what it wants, given the left has not actually pressed back with actual leftist economic ideas in decades.

    That must change. Flat out.

    That is what my choice in this is. I believe that is where the real wins are, and with those, solid results are.

    You clowns keep trying to fear, blame and shame, and given the dynamics in play, will not be effective. Does not work that way.

    Used to, but it won’t anymore.

    We crossed the line during Obama. Changing demographics, plus the number of Americans impacted moving to majority numbers are why.

    #41417

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    You know what? If people don’t vote for them, THEY WON’T WIN.

    HELLO!

    Yeah, they best speak to those voters and convince them they will, in fact, and deed, represent them rather than the big money.

    Candidates who pretend to represent All Americans can expect to pretend to win elections.

    That’s the work. It is hard work too. Let us hope they do it, so as to garner a number of votes sufficient to win.

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