I'll just leave this here

This topic contains 125 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Andy Brown 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 126 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #36568

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    #36569

    edselehr
    Participant

    I might have voted against Hillary as well, had I been given a viable alternative. But Trump was no a viable alternative.

    On Nov.8 2016 there were only two possible winners, and you had to work within the presidential electoral system we have, not the system we wish we had.

    With changes over time, I would like to see the electoral college issues addressed, and I would like to see third parties play a more prominent role in national politics.

    Trump as the Republican nominee and his chances of winning made the 2016 election too high stakes to dabble is “what-if-ism” regarding Bernie (“What if he got enough write-in support?”) or Trump (“What if he grows into the presidency, and becomes less narcissistic and petulant?”). Democratic politics weren’t wonderful (neither were Bernie’s) but they were sane, and safe – and considering the Trump alternative, a completely defensible choice. And don’t forget the Supreme Court, that could have been shifted more progressive for a generation, and is now shifted even more conservative for the same generation.

    I’m not sure what you are looking for here, Missing. Vindication for your beliefs? An answer to the problem that is our current administration? Justification for your choices on 11/8/16? We need to look past what brought us to this situation, and focus on how to correct it, and in what direction we move next.

    #36570

    Andrew
    Participant

    Right – a presidential election is a fork in the road your bus full of people is coming to – the bus must go forward, one path or the other. The passengers get to choose: which path in the fork should we choose: The path with some potholes and some turns in the road I don’t like? Or the path that goes off the cliff?

    Saying “I want the straight, well-paved road” that isn’t one of the paths in front of you means the other passengers will choose it, not you. (And under our current system – it really is only two paths.)

    I wish people would understand this basic fact about US presidential elections and not idealize an election as “loving” some dream candidate. Sometimes you do love the candidate you are voting for – sometimes you don’t. Work for your dream candidate to win the primary so when that bus comes to the path, he or she is one of the choices. If not, take the best path you have, instead of insisting neither path is good. One is ALWAYS better than the other.

    #36571

    Vitalogy
    Participant

    +1 Andrew.

    +1 Ed.

    -4 Missing.

    #36573

    Master of Disaster
    Participant

    The Master of Disaster thinks the point is both ‘major party’ candidates were no good for much of the populace, so many voted for third parties and many more didn’t vote at all. If those who didn’t vote instead voted, we might not be having this conversation. We might even have a rise in third parties.

    The solution is not hand-wringing and the tired nonsense already mentioned in this thread. This legalized harassment is one of the reasons why we have the problem in the first place. It would be even better if everyone saw the tired old argument for what it really is: “unduly influencing an elector.”

    #36577

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    …as well, had I been given a viable alternative. But Trump was no a viable alternative.

    Right?

    What I am looking for here is some understanding. To many people, flat out, Trump was an alternative they considered viable, or at the worst, a more favorable dice roll.

    Doing that hurts me. It hurts a lot of people. There is no debate on that point, from where I stand anyway.

    However, when one takes it from their point of view, and mind you that is exactly what drives votes, they believed and some still believe, a more positive economic outcome could result from all this mess.

    Interestingly, Brooker, Sanders and others are talking about some nice, left, long overdue policy.

    The second thing I’m looking for is also a matter of understanding, and that has to do with the NO VOTES, the people who do not see something to VOTE FOR.

    My take on all of that is the party strategy, at present, which is to generally snub real economic lefties in favor of more neo-liberal, big business friendly candidates, isn’t very well aligned with the basic problems which drove the loss of over 1000 seats, and a majority of Americans in real economic trouble today, not really better off in a meaningful sense.

    One could argue they are better off than had the GOP been in charge during that time, but that just isn’t meaningful to people struggling, who don’t want to struggle anymore, is it?

    Hint: No. It’s not.

    The idea of moving left, consolidating power among big money candidates, those who aren’t willing, or able (and that’s real, not a slam), to represent ordinary people, isn’t where we need to be taking all of this.

    And I’m absolutely not going to quit on that point. Right along with a lot of others right now, working ground, lobbying various people, organizing, running for office.

    See the UK elections? Tories down some 90 seats! Labour made very serious gains. That’s what we need to be doing, if we are to recover economically at all, and in a sense that ordinary Americans actually feel.

    Not feel in the “could be way worse” sense. That’s manipulative, abusive bullshit. Feel in terms of meaningful gains.

    #36578

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Andrew, so what exactly is that majority of Americans, who aren’t making progress, who are in real economic trouble, and whose numbers are growing supposed to do?

    Exactly what they are doing!

    And I’m 1000 percent in support of all that too. Not one dime to the party, and where there is a real economic progressive running, my vote every fucking time.

    Lots of us are going to do that. A whole lot more aren’t going to vote.

    The way to change that is to garner votes, and that means putting the things out there people would vote FOR, not against, or to OK the not very worst outcome, for fear of the worst one.

    You said something very interesting a while back, “[since it’s not gonna happen], why talk about it?”

    Well, there is the thing! It’s not going to happen, unless people talk about it, and talk a lot, and get politically involved.

    The state of health care in this nation right now is completely unacceptable. It’s a global embarrassment. It’s against the law in just about every developed nation. Hell, we made sure Iraq got good health care policy, health care as a right, written in after we bombed the shit out of them for oil.

    I, for one, am absolutely not going to lift a finger for people who don’t mean fixing that.

    What does that mean?

    No challenger, or a nut bag, or the GOP? Yeah, I’ll vote, but that’s it.

    Progressive? I’ll vote them, every time, win or lose. Every fucking time.

    Meanwhile, I’ll put my dollars and activism time behind people looking to challenge, or take party machinery from corrupt leadership, who could give two shits about the people they are supposed to be working for.

    Let’s call that pretend support for pretend representation and call it a day.

    Tell your friends. I am.

    And that goes back to what I’m looking for.

    Let’s be real. Most of us here are old enough to escape the worst of what may be coming. Most of us here are reasonably well off, or at least making it.

    I’m very badly harmed by this policy. Might not do so well, really might be in deep shit, though I’ve also got a real chance to power through and live somewhat reasonably.

    A Trump type hurts me. Hurts us.

    But, here’s the rub: Had Clinton won, we would be seeing Obama 2.0 economically. Obama 1.0 didn’t improve on the struggling majority. It increased, and actually passed majority numbers while he was in office.

    That’s a party fail economically.

    Not OK. I’m no longer in that game.

    Worse?

    Doing that shit puts the excellent social progress at risk! Without reasonable economic representation, consolidation of power to the economic right will come with social regression, and STILL no improvement for the growing majority in real trouble.

    Unacceptable.

    Like I said, looking for understanding. It’s not enough to sit in a position of relative security and proclaim that “it’s all as good as it gets”, when the truth is we have the resources to do much better and we need to, or entire generations of people are going to be in real hurt longer term.

    That’s my kids, your kids, grand kids.

    Again, unacceptable.

    I’m a Democrat, and I mean that. I’m not a play along for the ride type. Labor through and through.

    And it’s not as if I didn’t make that shit damn clear over the years either.

    Well, now is the time. Obama was the very last one. Honestly thought we would see some progress, but we did not.

    Time for a new game. Existing leadership has failed economically.

    Changing that is going to be super rough. Fine, I’m up for it. And if that means another round of GOP regression?

    Well, shit. Is what it is.

    I will not condone anymore and will maximize any opportunity to dilute the party economic vision and replace it with something a bit more civilized.

    So, what is worth what?

    At what point do we realize our fellow countrymen need real help? At what point do we actually think past, “well I’m good, fuck ’em?”

    Now is that point.

    Just think 4 years of Trump. Gonna be super rough. What about 8 years?

    Jesus, I am making plans right now. I’m no longer sure that won’t happen, and the reason I am no longer sure, is my party isn’t willing to do what it takes to win and actually do the job it exists to do.

    Frankly, most of you amaze me. We’ve had the conversations over the years. Some of you actually educated me on that now majority of Americans, and here you are…

    Buckle up. We are going to experience some of the best politics of our lives! Outcomes may not be pretty, but the guard is changing.

    This does not come around every day. No way in hell am I going to take things right, when all that has done is fail more of my peers than it helped.

    #36579

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “Andrew, so what exactly is that majority of Americans, who aren’t making progress, who are in real economic trouble, and whose numbers are growing supposed to do?”

    Vote for candidates at all levels of government – local, state, and federal plus in presidential primaries – who best represent their interests. You may find that those candidates may not be the ones – the “Berniecrats” – you assume they should be.

    In a general presidential election, Trump vs. Clinton? You vote for the BEST candidate. Saying, “Both are exactly the same, both are just as bad, I’m not voting for either of them!” means you are either lying or just not educated enough about the real differences about the candidates – or you are letting emotions get in the way of logical decisions. Any sane, rational voter in 2016 knew that there were real differences between Trump and Clinton and that, for them, one was better than the other.

    #36580

    Andrew
    Participant

    When the “Never Hillary!” idiots votes against her to help elect Trump, what happened? Among other things, he signed a nasty tax bill that increases income inequality even more and will make it even harder for the “majority of Americans, who aren’t making progress, who are in real economic trouble” as you say. Hillary would never have signed such a thing.

    #36581

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Might happen again too. Really going to suck isn’t it?

    Fear, blame and shame aren’t answers here man. It is time we step up for the majority who really need us to do that. Doing otherwise isn’t okay.

    You know, as far as egregious bills go, the Trump bill is pretty terrible. However Obama himself was going to cut Social Security and the safety nets in general. All Clinton would have done is a little bit nicer bill, but it still would have been bad. Not progress.

    That shit is not going to consistently win the elections.

    #36582

    Andrew
    Participant

    The “majority” needs to “step up” and vote in 2020 and not vote against a candidate again (or not bother to vote at all) to help re-elect Trump.

    #36583

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    No they don’t, and you need to understand that.

    Why should they be bothered, so you feel better?

    It’s not like they deserved any of this, asked for it.

    #36584

    Andrew
    Participant

    Well, you said they “aren’t making progress, who are in real economic trouble.” I guess if they are satisfied with that, then don’t bother to vote or vote against the Democrat again and help re-elect Trump and they can get more of the same. Or, they could actually vote in their own self-interests. Up to them, not me, to take some responsibility for themselves!

    #36585

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Guess you just can’t be bothered. Well maybe you are a ROMNEY voter.

    You sure as fuck are no Democrat. Dems aren’t about, ” fuck them, I got mine, they can go get theirs.”

    Where I come from, that’s all Republican.

    #36586

    Andrew
    Participant

    Where I come from, people need to get out and vote in their best interests, not expect others to do it for them and then whine and complain about the consequences when bad people get elected because they didn’t participate.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 126 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.