Deputy shoots and kills woman in self defense.

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  • #3251
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    INVERNESS, Fla. – A north Florida sheriff’s deputy fatally shot a woman who had grabbed his stun gun during an altercation and pointed it at him.

    The Citrus County Sheriff’s Office says the shooting occurred early Monday morning at the entrance to a mobile home park in Inverness.

    The deputy was responding to a disturbance call early Monday after someone called to report that 46-year-old Dawn Renee Cameron was trying to light her neighbor’s truck on fire. According to an incident report, the deputy fired after she pointed the stun gun at him.

    An example of how an unarmed person can quickly become armed.

    Officer wilson could easily have suffered the same fate. Brown may have been unarmed, but he was just one more punch away from arming himself, and with more than a stun gun.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/17/florida-sheriffs-deputy-shoots-kills-woman-after-grabs-gun/?intcmp=latestnews

    #3265
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    You are not really pro-life.

    More than once you have defended the killing of an unarmed kid.

    #3279
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    The usual irrelevant ad hominem response…

    Nice dodge.

    #3281
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    It’s unfortunate that you can’t understand or refuse to understand that when an unarmed person attacks an armed person, the latter can end up being armed and a mortal threat to the formerly armed person.

    The story I posted perfectly illustrates that point.

    There are cases of policemen having been attacked by “unarmed” thugs and being killed by their own weapons. It’s justifiable for a cop to use lethal force against someone who could take his gun and shoot him, as was the threat with Michael Brown. Just because he’s a “kid” doesn’t mean he gets to attack a cop.

    #3285
    Vitalogy
    Participant

    Sorry bro, you’re not really pro-life.

    If you were, you would be on the side of an unarmed kid executed by police.

    But because you’re an authoritarian, you favor power. It’s why you’re a catholic. You like power over the weak.

    Birds of a feather.

    #3287
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    OK, I’m anti-abortion. Now what?

    Would you rather that cop had let that previously unarmed woman taser him and then god knows what?

    Do you hate cops so much that it would have been better for you if Wilson had let Brown charge him, take control, seize the gun, and kill him with his own gun?

    #3290
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Attempts to frame away the obvious problem of excessive police force isn’t getting anybody anywhere.

    The core problem is people are being harmed or killed by police.

    Authoritarians are going to say, “That’s what you get.”

    Non-Authoritarians are going to say, “It’s unacceptable and how can we improve the situation?”

    I’m in the “How can we improve?” camp, meaning piecemeal justifications aren’t productive.

    One way we can improve is to go and get all the data we can on these events, boil it down to root causes and then make policy recommendations from there.

    Notice how we really aren’t talking about that? Notice how an awful lot of the commentary on these things is click bait, or pieces used for political leverage toward other agenda items?

    I do.

    Further, ongoing focus on the very high profile incidents severely marginalizes the many lower profile, but no less harmful, events.

    This too is unacceptable.

    If you really give a shit about this, quit feeding the fires and begin advocacy toward meaningful dialog aimed at realistic answers to this problem.

    #3341
    Alfredo_T
    Participant

    I would like to side-step Jerry’s armchair quarterbacking of what the police should do and instead offer that police officers do a dangerous job that routinely puts them in contact with volatile people and risky situations. Police training and the law go into great detail on how these situations should be handled, and as a result, we have a system that works well, for the most part. However, the public doesn’t hear the success stories; only the tragic failures get an audience.

    #3343
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    Attempts to frame away the obvious problem of excessive police force isn’t getting anybody anywhere.

    The core problem is people are being harmed or killed by police.

    Authoritarians are going to say, “That’s what you get.”

    Non-Authoritarians are going to say, “It’s unacceptable and how can we improve the situation?”

    I wonder how many “Dodge List” citations could be given for this portion of the post.

    1) It is yet to be determined that excessive police force is an “obvious problem.”

    2) Labeling this as an “authoritarian vs nonauthoritarian” issue is to sidestep the actual point that was made.

    Of course it would be good to look at the deeper problems here. Why would a kid rob a cigar store? How could his parents have done a better job and taught him not to be a bully and a theif? We could look at societal issues too.

    But the bottom line is that we have been discussing a particular incident, and officer Wilson should not be some kind of scapegoat as a means to achieve social justice.

    If someone tries to take a gun from a cop, obviously the intent is not good and it’s better for the cop to kill instead of being killed.

    +1 for Alfredo’s post.

    #3344
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Where that training exists and the chief believes, I agree.

    #3345
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    I used authoritarian to highlight where I am on this kind of thing and as support for advocacy aimed at getting others to ask the questions you did F&B.

    Why does the kid rob a store, for example?

    Lack of education, low or poor socio-economic status, gang activity, parenting or non-parenting where parents are unable or unwilling…

    Where the training and culture / values the chief puts out there are really solid, the authoritarian view is a perfectly reasonable one.

    Where that isn’t true, the authoritarian view is harmful.

    In either case root cause discussions are the higher value ones as is the goal of improving things so that we aren’t discussion so many events.

    Alfredo is right in that we see more of this, but I know police and public servant / outreach people here in PDX stepped away in the 90’s citing an overall escalation in violence and the chief PDX hired responding with thuggery.

    Ask those people and they are going to cite root causes they have personal, first hand experience with. Mostly nobody is asking.

    Regarding causes related to property crime and general violence, the authoritarian view is often quite harmful in that it really doesn’t provide a means by which we can evaluate policy impacts due to the strong influence of the personal responsibility message.

    This is a defining difference between most liberals and many conservatives.

    A liberal would say personal responsibility within a just, functioning, healthy policy and society makes good sense. They would also say it cannot be a crutch for obvious policy misalignments too.

    The authoritarion view goes way farther down that path, allowing for a much greater range of acceptable policy and a much less weighted consideration about it’s impacts.

    There are no dodges there.

    #3346
    Andy Brown
    Participant

    F&B “we have been discussing a particular incident, and officer Wilson should not be some kind of scapegoat as a means to achieve social justice.”

    Neither should the incident be insulated nor isolated from the rule of law and whether or not that occurred is not your decision. You write as if your opinion represents some larger group’s opinion and that you analyze and think and write for everyone in that group.

    That is total bullshit. You don’t now nor will you ever be anything more than one opinion, and you should learn to write like that is the case. This isn’t something that the general public is going to vote on, so quit trying to represent every sick conservative gun toting good ol’ boy that might be in agreement with the notion that might makes right.

    #3347
    duxrule
    Participant

    And then there’s this:

    Missouri cops beat 80-year-old hearing impaired veteran for not getting off of his tractor

    An 80-year-old Missouri veteran and his family accused local police of pulling him off of his tractor, attacking him and then charging him with assault, KCTV-TV reported.
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/missouri-cops-beat-80-year-old-hearing-impaired-veteran-for-not-getting-off-of-his-tractor/

    Cops aren’t always choir boys, and their stories need to be vetted as closely as anyone else’s.

    #3349
    missing_kskd
    Participant

    As I’ve put here before, two basic issues with police overall:

    1. Thuggery.

    Thugs are cheaper, do not require education and background be all that stellar.

    Financially strained police departments have diluted down the protect and serve culture featuring education on deescalation and conflict management of all kinds, leaving a more simple escalation of force to compliance doctrine.

    The latter means we have trained large numbers of ill equipped officers, with potentially dubious background and education to simply require compliance and use force to get it, regardless of it being indicated.

    The former put the expectation of force secondary based on a number of factors aimed at maximizing the overall safety when officers and the public interact.

    2. Liability Management.

    Streamlined, and cookie cutter, often team executed set pieces replaced officers trained, enabled, and supported in their ability to exercize judgement in handling citizen officer interactions.

    The example above is a great case in point. Non compliance was met with force, and liability management resulted in assault charges. Those are standard when there are physical interactions.

    Another one is the dual charge of interfearing with a peace officer and resisting arrest when a conflict over say a citizens civil rights. That one happened to me, and both charges were associated with standard behavior; namely, a take down, followed by some rag doll type yanking and coordinated tugging to make it appear as a struggle, despite me personally employing near zero physical movement or force of any kind.

    We could improve on these in obvious ways.

    A future discussion may well be how we can improve on citizen reactions, and the overall impact of our much better communication and recording technology in use today by everyone.

    #3350
    jerry1949
    Spectator

    And there was the case of the cop who shot a man who was reaching for something in his car. That was wrong too. Thankfully he wasn’t killed.

    My objection is that some people jump to the conclusion that because an unarmed black man is killed by a cop, that it’s necessarily an injustice, besides the frustration of them not being able to grasp the idea that he can become armed at the cop’s expense.

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