November 25, 2014 at 6:07 pm #3663
Lest we think that this is an isolated incident, this is a report from freaking UTAH. The numbers should disturb any thinking person.
Killings by Utah police outpacing gang, drug, child-abuse homicides
“In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members.
Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse.
And so far this year, deadly force by police has claimed more lives — 13, including a Saturday shooting in South Jordan — than has violence between spouses and dating partners.”
http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gangNovember 25, 2014 at 7:03 pm #3665jerry1949Spectator
There are gangs in Utah?
What about Chicago? How do those numbers look?November 25, 2014 at 7:04 pm #3666paulwalkerParticipant
Hold the phone, Dux. Utah is among the top 10 in least gun murders. And in proportion to population, Utah is one of the biggest states with low stats on this. Statistics can give us a map, but might not always give us the best route.
The point here is if Utah residents don’t kill each other with guns, then the police rate will be proportinally higher.
I, while not a Utah resident, am pleased that the gun murder rate is so low in a neighboring state. You have implied that Utah police shoot and kill more than others, when in fact, Utah police shoot and kill in proportion to a low gun murder rate.November 25, 2014 at 7:47 pm #3674HerbSpectator
How about facts to address the tragedy of minority violence?
93% of African-American homicide victims are killed by another African-American.
4/5 of non-fatal violence among African-Americans is committed by another African-American.
Let’s solve that problem.November 25, 2014 at 8:24 pm #3676VitalogyParticipant
You’re not interested in solving that problem. That would mean gun regulation, which of course, is off the table for old white guys like Herb who support the NRA over dead children with gun shots to the head.
My bigger concern is with cops shooting and killing the people they are sworn to “protect and serve”.November 25, 2014 at 8:43 pm #3681jerry1949Spectator
They’re allowed to kill people who try to kill them, nincompoop.
Be concerned about threats against cops too.November 25, 2014 at 8:53 pm #3682VitalogyParticipant
You are correct. They are allowed to kill people and get away with it. Remember, prosecutors are on the same team as the cops. They work hand in hand and have the same goals.
Protect and serve doesn’t mean kill on a whim.
Cops are hired by the taxpayers to KEEP the peace, not kill people out of convenience.
I would think a pro-life guy like you would get that, but then again, you’re not really pro-life.November 25, 2014 at 11:31 pm #3689
Can’t be, or there would be some discussion on how to improve things.
Here’s what I do see:
This outcome as well as the trends we’ve been experiencing for far too long are completely unacceptable and people are acting out over it, as they should.November 26, 2014 at 9:21 am #3706HerbSpectator
This recent article was written by an African American, Jason Riley, who effectively contradicts the same old, tired leftist narrative.
When liberals have no fact-based argument, it’s always about name-calling. So have fun with calling him racist:
The Other Ferguson Tragedy
Homicide is the leading cause of death among young black men, and 90% of black murder victims are killed by other blacks.
We now know that Michael Brown was much more of a menace than a martyr, but that won’t stop liberals from pushing an anti-police narrative that harms the black poor in the name of helping them.
The black teen in Ferguson, Mo., robbed a store, attacked a white police officer and was shot dead while resisting arrest. That was the conclusion of a St. Louis County grand jury that brought no charges against the officer after considering all the physical evidence, along with eyewitness accounts from blacks in the vicinity of the confrontation.
Not that any amount of evidence would have stopped the hooligans in Ferguson Monday night who were determined use Brown’s death as a pretext for more bad behavior. Nor will evidence thwart liberals who are bent on making excuses for black criminality and pretending that police shootings are responsible for America’s high black body count.
According to the FBI, homicide is the leading cause of death among young black men, who are 10 times more likely than their white counterparts to be murdered. And while you’d never know it watching MSNBC, the police are not to blame. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., and more than 90% of black murder victims are killed by other blacks. Liberals like to point out that most whites are killed by other whites, too. That’s true but beside the point given that the white crime rate is so much lower than the black rate.
Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do. The fact that their victims tend to be of the same race suggests that young black men in the ghetto live in danger of being shot by each other, not cops. Nor is this a function of “over-policing” certain neighborhoods to juice black arrest rates. Research has long shown that the rate at which blacks are arrested is nearly identical to the rate at which crime victims identify blacks as their assailants. The police are in these communities because that’s where the emergency calls originate, and they spend much of their time trying to stop residents of the same race from harming one another.
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani pointed this out recently on “Meet the Press” in a debate with sociologist Michael Eric Dyson. “What about the poor black child that is killed by another black child? Why aren’t you protesting that?” Mr. Giuliani asked.
“Those people go to jail,” Mr. Dyson responded. “I do protest it. I’m a minister. They go to jail.”
Mr. Dyson might want to try protesting a little harder. Chicago had 507 murders in 2012, only 26% of which were solved. “To put it another way: About three-quarters of the people who killed someone in Chicago in 2012 have gotten away with murder—so far, at least,” Chicago Magazine noted. Mr. Dyson and others on the left are not oblivious to this black pathology, but they are at pains even to acknowledge it, let alone make it a focus. Instead, liberals spend their time spotlighting white racism, real or imagined, and touting it as an all-purpose explanation for bad black outcomes.
Ferguson helps further that agenda in ways that Chicago does not. Hence, the left posits that the Michael Brown shooting is the norm, even though the data show that it’s the exception. And if black criminal behavior is a response to white racism, how is it that black crime rates were lower in the 1940s and 1950s, when black poverty was higher, racial discrimination was rampant and legal, and the country was more than a half-century away from twice electing a black president?
Racial profiling and tensions between the police and poor black communities are real problems, but these are effects rather than causes, and they can’t be addressed without also addressing the extraordinarily high rates of black criminal behavior—yet such discussion remains taboo. Blacks who bring it up are sell-outs. Whites who mention it are racists. (Mr. Dyson accused Mr. Giuliani of “white supremacy.”) But so long as young black men are responsible for an outsize portion of violent crime, they will be viewed suspiciously by law enforcement and fellow citizens of all races.
Pretending that police behavior is the root of the problem is not only a dodge but also foolish. The riots will succeed in driving business out of town, which means that Ferguson’s residents will be forced to pay more at local stores or travel farther for competitive prices on basic goods and services. Many Ferguson residents today can’t go to work because local businesses have been burned down.
Even worse, when you make police targets, you make low-income communities less safe. Ferguson’s problem isn’t white cops or white prosecutors; it’s the thug behavior exhibited by individuals like Michael Brown, which puts a target on the backs of other young black men. Romanticizing such behavior instead of condemning it only makes matters worse.
Mr. Riley is a member of the Journal’s editorial board and the author, most recently, of “Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed” (Encounter Books, 2014).November 26, 2014 at 9:32 am #3707
By Mr. Miller’s logic, he himself is to blame for this, so why doesn’t HE step up and get “his people” to fly right?November 26, 2014 at 9:37 am #3708
As with F&B, “but the liberals” doesn’t cut it Herb.November 26, 2014 at 10:03 am #3710NotalentParticipant
I see many of your comrads were downtown!November 26, 2014 at 10:19 am #3712
From your link:
“…Military veterans called for peace, a communist group called for the overthrow of capitalism, and a group calling for a Palestinian state all held court during a series of speeches on the steps of the state Justice Center in Portland.”
Sounds like Americans exercising their rights under the 1st Amendment. Why is that a problem for you?November 26, 2014 at 10:43 am #3713NotalentParticipant
Did I say I had a problem with Portland being “occupied” by communists and pro Palestinians?
I find it amusing actually.
However I do find this concerning:November 26, 2014 at 11:48 am #3715
Yeah, that is ugly.
We really should affirm the intent to be free of racial tensions and enter into a more rational discussion about how those tensions color and lead into events like Ferguson.
Without those, people who feel wronged have no path to resolution, leaving latent tension to build and escalate things further.
I know the authoritarian view will center on non compliance and that boils down to blaming somebody.
But doing that simply will not be productive.
If blame is removed from the discussion on how we can improve, the possibility for everybody to adopt an improved outlook, norms and policy will be viable, possible, practical.
Ferguson is symbolic, as well as a catalyst for action of all kinds.
Should we continue to adopt an authoritarian approach to this, there will be blame, and with that blame, the ongoing perception of injustice in the form of racial discrimination, and no good answers.
There will also be as many Fergusons as it takes to step away from that authoritarian path.
One nice side effect of stepping away from the authoritarian path is the potential for unity among people with the intent to improve.
We need that far more than we do a definitive decision on the wrongs in this case.
Really, it is just one of many that happened to capture national attention.
Do our leaders want a martyr, or do they want to start on a path to a better, more just State?
Most of the dialog is in the weeds, and that is what troubles me the most. I don’t want to see the escalation to come.
Perhaps it is unavoidable. Hope not, because it will be bloody and painful when it does not have to be.
And frankly, that is on every one of us. What is worth what people?
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