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    Brianna Joy Grey, former press secretary for the Sanders campaign starts about the middle of that piece.

    Progressives, Dem and Indie do not believe handing Biden support now, given he is not about the policy, also given that is what the Sanders campaign is about, makes any sense.

    Nor do I.

    Want that vote? Biden knows what to do to get it. Question is, does Biden want that vote.

    Now, if all you watch is corporate cable news, you won’t actually see any progressives presented. Does not mean they do not exist.

    Biden, as given right now is extremely likely to lose. Grey says why very well.

    Speaking of coronavirus, nominating someone opposed to Medicare for all, given the coming, and severe economic impact, being case #1 in point.

    Ordinary people need far more than the token $1200, increasingly delayed too.

    The GOP will not play nice, and so far the Biden campaign is platitudes and, “Biden is really, really, really not Trump”, neither of which gets us a winning campaign.

    In fact, his latest ad says, “movement”, where none really exists.

    For the policy minded people, Biden offers very little, and so there is pressure to improve on that out there, all of which I support.

    Policy, policy, policy. It will matter far more than the talking heads on the Tee Vee are willing to talk about right now.

    Said differences between parties, on the economic front are small. Indies see that very clearly.

    Policy can improve on all that, and with that improvement comes a better chance at a win against Trump.

    Or, you can tell me to fuck off a few more times, and I will care about that win about as much as you care about me.

    Painful, I know. I don’t give a fuck. This is about policy. Biden either plays, or does not.

    Andy Brown

    It’s less about policy than you realize to the lion’s share of voters. It’s about trump or no trump.

    The no trump leads and will win without the blessings of the policy wonks.

    Get used to those apples, or not. We don’t need the votes of the far left.

    Andy Brown

    This is about the center overcoming the extreme right. The extreme right has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The far left is more of a fringe. The proof of that is Bernie’s loss.


    >>It’s less about policy than you realize to the lion’s share of voters. It’s about trump or no trump.


    You are entirely correct Andy.

    Problem is “lions share” is no longer enough.** The policy people now are a significant voting bloc.

    Those votes can be had, given meaningful representation, and that means Biden needs to talk some policy, or he’s extremely likely to lose.

    Good. Hope he does talk policy. It’s necessary.

    As for “fringe”, that “lions share” also supports the progressive policy platform in solid numbers among Dems and Indies, with Indies being the highest, Dems second highest, and roughly a quarter of the GOP. Many have voted or are saying they will vote Biden, because of policy.

    Hardly fringe on that front.

    The people in opposition, myself included, are a smaller number overall within that policy supportive group of people, but we are definitely necessary for a Biden win. Unless, of course, he can succeed with getting moderate Republicans to come over. Clinton failed there. Maybe Biden can do that. If so, he’s going to win.

    Right now, that’s a gamble the DNC is totally going to take, given they flat out oppose the policy.

    From where I stand, let them. I’ve been told my vote, and that of the policy bloc, let’s call it, isn’t needed. That’s fine too, meaning whether I cast it simply is not a worry.

    …unless it is. We shall see over the next few months as pressure is brought to bear on Biden and team to adopt better policy. And again, that’s what this is all about. That’s the divide in the Dems, and a solid reason why many Indies do not show up consistently for Dem elections.

    I submit the numbers have been growing since the ACA legislation time. I also submit they will continue to grow as more Americans struggle every year. Those people prove quite receptive to the idea of better policy, and health care impact on me personally –severe and repeated impact that I’ve had to do way more work in life than I should have to overcome, is precisely why I’m in the policy camp.

    Unlike many here, I don’t fear Trump. Not one lick. He’s a real mess, and it won’t be pretty. All the more reason for ordinary people to give a shit about others. If we can’t do that?

    We deserve him. That’s no joke.

    Given the shit I’ve had to take? Pfffft. Just more work, and doing that shit is a given with EITHER party too. That’s been true for long enough I feel it makes great sense to lean hard on policy, and that is where I will stay.

    Others may differ. Everyone gets to do that, but just know why fear, blame and shame just won’t work on most of the policy minded bloc.

    **Younger voters, say under 45, are very policy driven, well connected with one another, also well informed due to the fact that they give cable news very little overall attention.

    A solid majority of “Bernie bros” are actually women, most under 40. They are also the current core of the progressive movement, are adept at Internet / social media, are excellent organizers, and mindful of policy, and obviously women’s rights. This is why I linked Grey. She’s worth a watch to understand why Biden does not have these votes at present.


    BTW Andy, I do not believe camp Biden will move. Too much money totally not about doing that.

    I predict a looser stand on basic rights, a bump in racism, for example. This will be done to seek Trump people on the fence, because getting behind effective policy will prove too toxic to the donors.

    We can watch. Won’t take long to find out. Maybe I am wrong, though I do notice #MeToo ended right as Tara Reade broke her story.

    And maybe I will be proved wrong. Would be nice to see team Biden pick up a significant plank or two and mean it. I will gladly vote, should that actually happen.




    We will see. Courting GOP voters will totally involve compromise.

    It requires more, given no meaningful compromise with the left.

    Biden needs one or the other, or some of both.

    He has already signaled Republicans in the cabinet is OK, on the table.


    Missing: “Problem is “lions share” is no longer enough.** The policy people now are a significant voting bloc”

    Whether they are “significant” or not doesn’t mean they won’t vote for Biden, which is all that matters. Given that Sanders didn’t get enough votes to win the nomination, I’d say the “voting bloc” that cares more about “my policy or nothing” than about beating Trump is probably small and insignificant.

    Andy Brown

    Sanders is now saying that not supporting/voting for Biden would be irresponsible. He’s reaching most of his followers but the far left fringe, and they are both small in numbers albeit loud and persistent in practice and insignificant in election statistics.


    I posted that interview for Missing once or twice already – but it wouldn’t hurt to post it one more time. 😉

    Andy Brown

    The fringe left keeps labeling Biden’s agenda as moderate but in reality it is far more progressive than Hillary Clinton’s was. The most disingenuous part of missing’s monophonic diatribes is the way he portrays Biden as a feeble old man with no legitimate plan. All I can say is if that was the case, he wouldn’t be the leading candidate. He wouldn’t have beaten the crap out of Bernie in the primaries and he wouldn’t be leading drumpf in the polls.

    Andy Brown

    Sad but true assessment of how drumpf has destroyed the country he promised to make great again
    🇮🇪 ☘️ 🇮🇪
    Irish Times
    April 25, 2020
    By Fintan O’Toole
    Over more than two centuries, the United States has stirred a very wide range of feelings in the rest of the world: love and hatred, fear and hope, envy and contempt, awe and anger. But there is one emotion that has never been directed towards the US until now: pity.
    However bad things are for most other rich democracies, it is hard not to feel sorry for Americans. Most of them did not vote for Donald Trump in 2016. Yet they are locked down with a malignant narcissist who, instead of protecting his people from Covid-19, has amplified its lethality. The country Trump promised to make great again has never in its history seemed so pitiful.
    Will American prestige ever recover from this shameful episode? The US went into the coronavirus crisis with immense advantages: precious weeks of warning about what was coming, the world’s best concentration of medical and scientific expertise, effectively limitless financial resources, a military complex with stunning logistical capacity and most of the world’s leading technology corporations. Yet it managed to make itself the global epicentre of the pandemic.
    As the American writer George Packer puts it in the current edition of the Atlantic, “The United States reacted … like Pakistan or Belarus – like a country with shoddy infrastructure and a dysfunctional government whose leaders were too corrupt or stupid to head off mass suffering.”
    It is one thing to be powerless in the face of a natural disaster, quite another to watch vast power being squandered in real time – wilfully, malevolently, vindictively. It is one thing for governments to fail (as, in one degree or another, most governments did), quite another to watch a ruler and his supporters actively spread a deadly virus. Trump, his party and Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News became vectors of the pestilence.
    The grotesque spectacle of the president openly inciting people (some of them armed) to take to the streets to oppose the restrictions that save lives is the manifestation of a political death wish. What are supposed to be daily briefings on the crisis, demonstrative of national unity in the face of a shared challenge, have been used by Trump merely to sow confusion and division. They provide a recurring horror show in which all the neuroses that haunt the American subconscious dance naked on live TV.
    If the plague is a test, its ruling political nexus ensured that the US would fail it at a terrible cost in human lives. In the process, the idea of the US as the world’s leading nation – an idea that has shaped the past century – has all but evaporated.
    Other than the Trump impersonator Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, who is now looking to the US as the exemplar of anything other than what not to do? How many people in Düsseldorf or Dublin are wishing they lived in Detroit or Dallas?
    It is hard to remember now but, even in 2017, when Trump took office, the conventional wisdom in the US was that the Republican Party and the broader framework of US political institutions would prevent him from doing too much damage. This was always a delusion, but the pandemic has exposed it in the most savage ways.
    Abject surrender
    What used to be called mainstream conservatism has not absorbed Trump – he has absorbed it. Almost the entire right-wing half of American politics has surrendered abjectly to him. It has sacrificed on the altar of wanton stupidity the most basic ideas of responsibility, care and even safety.
    Thus, even at the very end of March, 15 Republican governors had failed to order people to stay at home or to close non-essential businesses. In Alabama, for example, it was not until April 3rd that governor Kay Ivey finally issued a stay-at-home order.
    In Florida, the state with the highest concentration of elderly people with underlying conditions, governor Ron DeSantis, a Trump mini-me, kept the beach resorts open to students travelling from all over the US for spring break parties. Even on April 1st, when he issued restrictions, DeSantis exempted religious services and “recreational activities”.
    Georgia governor Brian Kemp, when he finally issued a stay-at-home order on April 1st, explained: “We didn’t know that [the virus can be spread by people without symptoms] until the last 24 hours.”
    This is not mere ignorance – it is deliberate and homicidal stupidity. There is, as the demonstrations this week in US cities have shown, plenty of political mileage in denying the reality of the pandemic. It is fuelled by Fox News and far-right internet sites, and it reaps for these politicians millions of dollars in donations, mostly (in an ugly irony) from older people who are most vulnerable to the coronavirus.
    It draws on a concoction of conspiracy theories, hatred of science, paranoia about the “deep state” and religious providentialism (God will protect the good folks) that is now very deeply infused in the mindset of the American right.
    Trump embodies and enacts this mindset, but he did not invent it. The US response to the coronavirus crisis has been paralysed by a contradiction that the Republicans have inserted into the heart of US democracy. On the one hand, they want to control all the levers of governmental power. On the other they have created a popular base by playing on the notion that government is innately evil and must not be trusted.
    The contradiction was made manifest in two of Trump’s statements on the pandemic: on the one hand that he has “total authority”, and on the other that “I don’t take responsibility at all”. Caught between authoritarian and anarchic impulses, he is incapable of coherence.
    Fertile ground
    But this is not just Donald Trump. The crisis has shown definitively that Trump’s presidency is not an aberration. It has grown on soil long prepared to receive it. The monstrous blossoming of misrule has structure and purpose and strategy behind it.
    There are very powerful interests who demand “freedom” in order to do as they like with the environment, society and the economy. They have infused a very large part of American culture with the belief that “freedom” is literally more important than life. My freedom to own assault weapons trumps your right not to get shot at school. Now, my freedom to go to the barber (“I Need a Haircut” read one banner this week in St Paul, Minnesota) trumps your need to avoid infection.
    Usually when this kind of outlandish idiocy is displaying itself, there is the comforting thought that, if things were really serious, it would all stop. People would sober up. Instead, a large part of the US has hit the bottle even harder.
    And the president, his party and their media allies keep supplying the drinks. There has been no moment of truth, no shock of realisation that the antics have to end. No one of any substance on the US right has stepped in to say: get a grip, people are dying here.
    That is the mark of how deep the trouble is for the US – it is not just that Trump has treated the crisis merely as a way to feed tribal hatreds but that this behaviour has become normalised. When the freak show is live on TV every evening, and the star is boasting about his ratings, it is not really a freak show any more. For a very large and solid bloc of Americans, it is reality.
    And this will get worse before it gets better. Trump has at least eight more months in power. In his inaugural address in 2017, he evoked “American carnage” and promised to make it stop. But now that the real carnage has arrived, he is revelling in it. He is in his element.
    As things get worse, he will pump more hatred and falsehood, more death-wish defiance of reason and decency, into the groundwater. If a new administration succeeds him in 2021, it will have to clean up the toxic dump he leaves behind. If he is re-elected, toxicity will have become the lifeblood of American politics.
    Either way, it will be a long time before the rest of the world can imagine America being great again.


    I had to stop reading that – made me too angry. 🙁


    While I feel we may have turned the corner on this, I think the economic ramifications will be severe. I expect a deep recession lasting most of this year, and perhaps into next year. Trump expects to turn on a light switch and everything to be “perfect” once again. No. Won’t happen. Even when restaurants re-open there is little guarantee that most will feel comfortable in such. Getting the workforce back to what it was pre-Corona will take time. How long is unknown, but it won’t happen overnight. I think we are in for a long haul with this.


    “like a country with shoddy infrastructure and a dysfunctional government whose leaders were too corrupt or stupid to head off mass suffering.”

    Wrong … there is no or

    a dysfunctional government whose leaders were too corrupt AND stupid to head off mass suffering.

    Missing, I haven’t ever met online someone who could accomplish so little with so many words. Either you’ll wake up to the danger, or you won’t. You certainly don’t get high marks for your stubborn refusal to look the current moment in the face and act responsibly.


    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by radiogeek.
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