November 12, 2016 at 6:42 pm #24817e_dawgParticipant
I found a link on my Facebook page that people are signing up this petition regarding the electoral college vote.November 12, 2016 at 7:40 pm #24819proud2baconservativeSpectator
Wouldn’t that be awesome if the will of the people could be thwarted?
There would be a REAL civil war if that happened.November 12, 2016 at 7:49 pm #24822
I’m in support of election reform.
However, let’s be clear: Clinton failed Clinton and Democrats failed Democrats.
That is why they lost.
Election matters can impact how HARD it is to commit that failure, no disagreement there.
But those matters are not root causes. Just to be clear.November 12, 2016 at 8:11 pm #24823
Let me frame this another way.
Since 2000, and the Help America Vote Act, and the more recent and severe gutting of the Voting Rights Act, many elections in the USA have degraded and present more corruption, error and lack of trust than is acceptable.
That’s a blanket statement, and some parts of the nation, like South Carolina, aren’t trustworthy at all! Seriously, SC uses paperless touch screen voting. Nobody ever knows who wins an election there. It’s simply not possible to do.
Might as well elect by dice roll. It’s that bad.
Other parts are quite good! Oregon is one of those, and really our only weak point is how we do the hand count audits and or outside third party ballot audit access. We do have a court path for that, so it’s pretty solid.
But, if we elect the wrong people, our elections could get shitty quick.
In my view, this matter is one that requires constant attention, and the trouble is three fold:
1. Sore loser events. Everybody hates them, and they get marginalized quickly.
2. If we actually do surrender trust in elections, we bring ourselves to a crisis. If the elections aren’t viable in some basic way, the authority to govern that we grant is in question. This is ugly, nobody wants to do it. We don’t even have a process, other than very significant civil unrest, to resolve it.
Count on this absolutely not happening.
3. Best time to do reforms is after an election, but before the next one really ramps up. However, given the current state of the nation, there is literally a huge list of things we will do first, also sore loser still applies here.
I have concluded, since 2000, no external change is possible. Election reform must come from within legislatures, and it must happen in a way not linked to specific events, but can happen on a general lack of trust, and quality of governance, ethics, etc… basis.
This is how Oregon and other States have improved.
There is also a strong cost argument for things like VBM, where we aren’t exactly the cheapest, but in terms of impact on people, turnout and a lot of other metrics, like accuracy, how we do elections is compelling.
But, we aren’t the only game in town either.
Given all of this, right now is the absolute worst time to act. Nothing is gonna get done, and it just contributes to the problem and motivation to resolve.November 12, 2016 at 8:16 pm #24824
All that said, most elections are reasonable and winnable.
That’s what we got, that’s what we live with, until we can improve in a way that isn’t a problem or that will create a crisis.
Here’s a great way to put that. Sanders could have run just a bit better campaign. Might have put him over the top.
There is an argument for the process requiring much better performance than it might otherwise when running in an optimal way. That’s a bias argument, and it’s a valid one.
However, it’s winnable. So the root of this means people wanting to challenge the status quo have a higher burden than those wanting to become part of the status quo.
Now we know. Work to be done. End of story.
For Clinton people to rest on the election is a sleight of hand. It’s a dodge no better than the Sanders people, and many other people going back a long time.
Not a root cause, just a contributing factor.
It’s my view here, regarding Clinton, that she frankly had absolutely no excuse! The same bias and struggles we saw with Sanders effort to get the nomination very strongly favored her campaign. She had name, money, influence, plenty of experience…
(experience losing these things apparently)
…the Democratic party alignment and many other strong political advantages, means and methods.
She has even ran a campaign in the past, with all that understanding on which elections need what efforts and why.
Lost her ass. It’s not an election problem. It is absolutely a personal problem.November 12, 2016 at 8:26 pm #24825VitalogyParticipant
Seriously, are you on drugs?
The Bernie Bros, YOU, are going to see just how expensive your idealism is.
Get ready for it. The GOP controls all 3 and they will run roughshed moving forward. It’s what they do. You and your Bernie Bros have set back your cause 50+ years.
I’ve got a lot of respect for you, but right now I just want to tell you to fuck off and enjoy the shit sandwich you helped to bring the US.November 12, 2016 at 10:01 pm #24827
You get to tell me to fuck off. And you know what?
I’ve that same respect and will easily forgive you for it. 😀 Trust me when I say I know damn well this isn’t gonna be pretty.
But, if you do, be sure and detail why so we can break it down over time. That’s worth it.
There is a very hard, very ugly truth that will have to play out among people on the left, and I’ve put it here and will take the heat.
Will take it, because I’m right about it. You are looking to blame, it’s not me. It’s not Bernie, nor all the people who backed him this year.
Hey, I cast my vote, right along with most people in Oregon. Notice that?
Do you know why those votes were not cast in other places? Michigan, for example. 90k voters didn’t vote for President. 90k that would have very seriously helped Clinton too.
I’ve friends there, and in Ohio, PA, and a lot of other places. Not just people, political people, campaign level people.
There are two basic and very painful reasons why those votes didn’t get cast:
1. Voters were told they were not needed. Twice. I’ll go dig these events up, but they aren’t hard to find. Once in the convention setting and again out on the trail not a month afterword.
2. People could not connect a positive future to their vote for Clinton.
Bernie isn’t in charge of that, I’m not in charge of that, no basic voter is in charge of that.
Clinton is in charge of that and Clinton didn’t get out there and close the deal. It’s that simple.
We can actually set aside all the shit that got said. And it comes back to that. She just didn’t do the work.
That’s who got us Trump.
I won’t repeat my earlier commentary. It stands just fine. There are a lot of details to sort out, obviously.
Rather than tell me to fuck off, I very strongly encourage you to start asking questions. That’s what I did about 6 months ago.
I don’t do fear and shame. And sometimes that gets really tough, painful. Set those two aside and start asking questions. Bet you get where I am inside of a month.
It’s a new day man. This nation is shifting and it’s not going back to what we would expect to see over most of our adult lives.
Politics changed this year. Big.November 14, 2016 at 5:21 pm #24896November 14, 2016 at 5:26 pm #24897paulwalkerParticipant
Challenging the electoral vote at this point will lead to nowhere. NOWHERE!
Inside to Missing and Vit. You guys used to be on the same side. I think you still are.November 14, 2016 at 6:34 pm #24903skepticalParticipant
Let me add my gallon of gas to the flame. I LIKED Bernie but went with Clinton. The behavior of many a Bernie bot were disgusting. A convincing argument not based on confirmation bias supporting Bernie beating Trump doesn’t exist.
In hindsight, the candidate the Democrats should have run was Joe Biden. None of the Clinton baggage, none of the Sanders socialism and all of the popular Obama coat tails to hang on to. Maybe close, but likely a win.
But the election is over. While not as angry as Vitalogy, I’ve long quit listening to Bernie supporters. Geez.
Bernie’s age might be a factor in 2020 but I’d like to see him be part of the field again.
So please, let’s look forward, not back!November 14, 2016 at 6:46 pm #24904VitalogyParticipant
The fact is, Bernie damaged the Clinton campaign enough in the primary that it allowed Trump to get elected. He should have dropped out earlier, but kept on going and as a result, he pretty much pissed in the collective well.
The number one reason why Hillary lost is because the Dems didn’t bother to vote. Period. So, as a result, rather than getting Hillary which would have kept things moving forward as is for our country, we now have the KKK taking over the White House with GOP majorities in both houses to let President Elect Rapist McRacist to run roughshed.
And if you think the solution is to go further left, I’m afraid that’s the wrong way to go unless you want permanent conservative majorities.
So, to all Bernie Bros, fuck off and enjoy the outcome you helped bring to fruition.November 14, 2016 at 6:58 pm #24905paulwalkerParticipant
Wow, Vit Doubles Down! Details at 11.November 14, 2016 at 10:05 pm #24917proud2baconservativeSpectator
The problem was the DNC didn’t allow a full field of candidates to run as did the Republicans.
It was always to be Clinton. She was the chosen one. Bernie was just a token candidate to make things look legit and make Hillary look good–to make her look like a winner going into the general election. But he was never supposed to go anywhere. He’s a crazy old Socialist. I don’t think they thought he would give her a real run for her money, but that speaks to the weakness of Clinton’s candidacy. But the DNC was determined it was to be her and stacked the deck against Bernie and disenfranchised a large segment of Democratic voters who wanted change and not the establishment, and so they the wound up with their chosen and planned candidate.
The RNC, however, wisely allowed the voters to decide and pick a “change” candidate, in spite of him being unconventional, and seen by many to be a lost cause.
Bernie didn’t lose the election for Hillary. He didn’t beat her up that badly. And he foolishly let her slide on her email scandal. He might have made some hay with it.
The people were determined to repudiate the status quo. They couldn’t do that with Hillary.
Blame the DNC for their corruption and blame the Clinton Machine for putting their personal interests and ambitions ahead of those of the people. Blame the DNC and HRC for cheating and causing some Bernie supporters to sit out the election because of their disillusionment. Hillary was a bad candidate. In spite all the help she had from the media, she was outsmarted by a “buffoon” who never ran for office.
But there is good news: President Trump.
Give him a chance. I think he could be a great president. I encourage anyone who has not seen the 60 minutes interview to watch it and I think you will find it reassuring.November 15, 2016 at 8:56 am #24923LurkingGrendelParticipant
Still gloating like a petty dick, I see.
That’s quite the victory lap your’e taking for someone who lost the popular vote and only took the electoral votes from PA, WI, and MI by less than .01% of the votes within those states.
Yes he won. We get it. Everyone who predicted otherwise readily admitted as much, and admitted error, the morning after the election.
If you bothered to read (much less bothered to respond or answered a direct query) anything people had actually written, you’d note that everyone is trying like hell to find reassuring things to say and think about President elect Donald Trump.
As opposed to endlessly regurgitating the same, tired, predictable, and often unhinged from fact and substance, statements that are largely designed by you to simply be either rude and trolling, how about trying to address some of those concern points in a fact based manner, (along with the give and take that occurs in an actual debate or discourse) and sway others to your point of view?
As for the 60 Minutes interview, I did watch it. I did not think he was “great”. Nor was he the incoherent and truculent mess he often sounded like throughout the campaign. In my opinion, it was a glass half full effort. I give him full marks for trying, (and I’m not being sarcastic, we *need* him to grow up and quit acting like a child. He’s beyond alarming watching a grown man, much less our soon to be POTUS, still lashing out at critics about petty slights on social media) but I still found a great deal of the substance utterly lacking.
I’m trying to be hopeful. Here in the early going he’s not helping a great deal.November 15, 2016 at 9:27 am #24926
There is very little good to say about President Trump.
I do not condone the demonstrations and attempt to challenge the vote. Said why too. I’ll stand on that.
I do condone all the activism centered on highly controversial things Trump said to get elected.
To the degree Bernie damaged Clinton, one must ask questions about the roots of that damage. Clinton has held many policy visions, depending on the political winds in play at the time. Sanders had not done that.
If we believe it was not in the public interest to have an honest discussion about Clinton, Sanders did some harm. If we believe it made the best sense for the party to act as though she were the best and presumptive nominee, Sanders did harm there too.
I’m asking you to question those beliefs, in fact, question the premise behind the Clinton campaign and show your work.
In advance of that discussion, you will find it to be a really hard sell. WikiLeaks, etc… was going to happen, and the Clinton baggage was always there, and she wasn’t going to do the work.
In those ways, Clinton failed Clinton.
She, herself, in the things she did and said, are the reasons she lost. I might add, she apparently just didn’t pick the brightest bulbs either. We now know that due to the DNC info leaked to us.
Lots of the stupid in there and clear evidence the party failed the party too.
Re: More left?
Hell yes! That was, is, and shall remain the answer.
Re: Same side
To the degree we may discuss desirable outcomes, that better state of things, we are on the same side.
To the nature of how that gets done?
Democrats are split, and have been for some time, with progressives clearly pulling left against a centrist leadership.
The lefty split among Dems and indie voters are in the process of unifying behind the great ideas Sanders put out there.
The size of that bloc, or faction, whatever we call it today, is formidable and exceeds the entirety of Democratic party support over all.
It’s time to take the party, gut it, take it left and go win.
If that somehow doesn’t happen, progressives will simply go win elections anyway, and from that position, take the party left, or form a faction similar to what the Tea Party did, and exert influence that way.
So there you go. Field of play becoming clear, lines being drawn.
Soon, once Trump is seated and a few things locked in, the alphas on the left will begin to build for the midterms.
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