BERNIE launch events are big success!

This topic contains 54 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  missing_kskd 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 55 total)
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  • #41105

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “I think my opinion is based on what is now a ton of economic data, and numerous public polls run on all the topics for years now.”

    And I base my opinion on the outcome of recent elections, which is what really matters, not “public polls.”

    #41106

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    The outcome of recent elections include very strong financial biases.

    What really matters is how the people move to improve their politics. In the end, that’s where all this is headed.

    Will they move in numbers sufficient to change the direction?

    Nobody knows. But, an attempt is on the table. I’m in on that. No brainer.

    Right now, the State by State organizing effort is being assembled. Rallies for general awareness, org efforts to follow. Basically, knock on all the doors. Take it right to the people.

    Progressives do not have huge amounts of money to buy (useless for the policy vision) flashy media. It’s cheaper and more efficient to make news, and then take that to people directly.

    Progressives do have large amounts of recurring type money to operate on, and they have a very large, and growing body of people to message with.

    Straight up labor campaign man. It’s great to see.

    I think it’s absolutely hilarious to go back and read your fatherly lectures on how all this is done, only to see you were not far from the mark. Historic scale actually.

    Yeah, not gonna lie. It’s awesome. Soak it in Andrew.

    #41107

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Also, ahem.

    #41108

    Vitalogy
    Participant

    “Let’s just say electing “moderate” dems does more to strengthen the GOP than anything progressives are doing.”

    You really believe that?

    If you want to pass legislation and eliminate the stacking of the courts by the GOP, every Dem counts.

    The problem with you is you’re looking for 100% purity.

    #41109

    edselehr
    Participant

    Missing, what is the point of your last post? That there are concern trolls out there working to suppress the Democratic vote? That’s not news.

    #41110

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “The outcome of recent elections include very strong financial biases.

    What really matters is how the people move to improve their politics. In the end, that’s where all this is headed.”

    No, what really matters is how they actually VOTE – IF they vote. Hoping it is happening is like hoping I will win the next big lottery jackpot: sure, it’s POSSIBLE, but what are the chances? Pretending I’m going to win because I want to isn’t the same as actually winning.

    Sorry, I have to live in reality, in the world as it is, not in the world as I wish it were.

    #41111

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Andrew, if the campaign does organize to a scale capable of knocking on most of the doors, that’s gonna equate to votes.

    We shall see.

    Re: Electing moderate Dems strengthens the GOP

    “we need to go right to win”, QED

    Re: Last post

    There are lots of people online saying stupid shit. I thought, given all the shit flung my way, CENTRISTS UNITE or TRUMP was hilarious!

    Thoughts phrased another way:

    There is an ever decreasing difference between neoliberal and neoconservative economic visions, with that centering much closer to neocon econ. Would be interesting to sort out how true that has always been, vs a general, growing consensus between the parties economically.

    I think it’s always been true, but the impacts took time to play out enough to make that discernable.

    Progressives are rejecting both of those. That is super important to understand. In that sense, electing moderate Dems does strengthen the GOP. It absolutely does, in that it directly impacts the Democrats ability to actually represent labor, what is left of the middle class, et al. in a meaningful way.

    Advantage GOP, flat out.

    Now, on social matters that is not generally true. Fair enough.

    And, I’ve argued many times before, failure on economics has put the social progress at severe risk, which we see playing out today too. Not good.

    The whole reason Progressives are behind Bernie, organizing as they are, is due to the fact that being strong left socially is not effective. We lost a lot of ground doing that. Economic costs are severe.

    Wages, costs (health care, housing, other things) and personal risk exposure are off the charts ugly compared to income for way too many people. We’ve shuffled that problem around, but we’ve not really impacted it.

    Economics matter.

    So long as the left does not get that, the advantage goes to facists, and the GOP is front and center in all of that.

    Go read the world news. We are not the only nation struggling with all of this.

    Fact is, the left stepped away from labor centric economic policy, cuddled up with big business, ran strong on identity politics, and the economic carnage has caught up.

    And so here we are.

    I’m a lefty, and I’ve got a solid basis for that. And my votes, my activism, all of it is about advancing leftist ideas. Those ideas have broad support, and are best aligned to the economic trouble we are having as a nation right now.

    Moderates, who actually do lean left economically are a good thing. The vast majority of those lean right, and where that’s true, we are handing the advantage to our political opponents, by literally becoming them.

    No thanks. Not down with that. Won’t be.

    And frankly, the by far biggest root of the difficulty, is big money, big donor politics. Those people are not going to take the money and then turn around and do labor a solid.

    That’s not what the money is for! That money is an investment, and people who invest, expect returns.

    Hello moderates! This isn’t hard.

    Accepting it might be. Trust me, it’s very difficult to understand the fight you’ve been in has been fixed for a long while. Sucks balls.

    What I can tell you is that all gets better damn quick.

    Join me. No joke. The politics are way better, and with few exceptions, I’ve seen every single one of you riff on one or more elements of those politics as a good idea, or right thing to do, time, etc… Archives are there. Go read ’em. You can find mine super easy. I was not shy.

    And now here we are amidst a campaign all about the good stuff, and the expectation is to poo poo it?

    Not on your life! It’s time to move, swing for the fences, take it to the people and pull the discussion left. It’s already working. More good will happen, ahem. Incrementally.

    😀

    Also, put down the cable news for a while. It helps.

    #41112

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “Andrew, if the campaign does organize to a scale capable of knocking on most of the doors, that’s gonna equate to votes.”

    Could be – but enough to win a bunch of elections? Not yet.

    “We shall see.”

    Perhaps – but I doubt it, and we haven’t seen it yet. Maybe will find out the moon is made of green cheese someday, too – but until we find that out, I’ll assume it isn’t. Wishing it was doesn’t make it true.

    “Re: Electing moderate Dems strengthens the GOP

    “we need to go right to win”, QED”

    We don’t need to “go right.” But we need the tent to be a little bigger to allow more people on the conservative side of the electorate under the big tent of the Democratic voting bloc. We need candidates who fit their congressional districts. My congressman, Earl Blumenauer, is a good fit for my district, even though I’m less liberal than he is. He doesn’t need to take more conservative positions. But in other districts, he would be a poor fit, and he would lose.

    It doesn’t help to run a bunch of lefty-left candidates in more centrist congressional districts that where they can’t win. That just helps the Republicans keep power. If you are not in the majority, you are nothing, even if you might feel more pure. Big deal – doesn’t help get the changes you want through Congress and passed into law if you don’t have the majority.

    As for the presidency: I think more in terms of “ideologue vs pragmatist.” We need a president who can operate in the real world and get things done, not aim for the moon with impossible-to-pass proposals and achieve nothing. If we can get a Congress that will pass meaningful health care reform, I want a president who will sign it, not a president who will veto it because it’s not “perfect.”

    #41113

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    I’ll assume it isn’t

    Well, that never accomplished a damn thing.

    #41114

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    But we need the tent to be a little bigger to allow more people on the conservative side of the electorate under the big tent of the Democratic voting bloc

    Advantage GOP. See, that tent could include pro labor, Bernie, others. Doesn’t, unless the neoliberal economics are part of the deal. 8n which caee, why bother?

    The DCCC works against progrssives all the time.

    I would buy that tent argument more, if expanding that tent did not always trend right. And toward the big money.

    All that shit is why progressives quit asking Andrew. Now we are just doing. And this time, just hold up the party flag, and take matters right to the people.

    See, what you advocate for comes right at the expense of a strong social left. Will make it increasingly tepid. Republcan curious, let’s say.

    Worse, it centers economics on the right side of things. Notvthat we meed more of that 40 years going now. Did not perform.

    What good is a voting bloc that will not actually make increments of change to the left, that favor people who really need it today?

    Progressives, who are indies, outnumber these ROMNEY voters huge. Lots of great people out there. No tent opening their direction.

    And somehow those people are expected to vote favorably to an entiity not friendly to them?

    Lol, hard sell that.

    Now, done our way, party tent gets lifted up, we invite em in, and let them know enough of us will crash the party successfully.

    Down ticket candidates can choose. Run with us, and make the bloc, movement bigger, more effective

    , or

    Eventually face us as we make progress. Anyone wanting to primary? Yup. Let’s do it. Got pepple in mind too.

    Dems like me have lifted the tent up. Come on in, no cover, donate direct to the cool kids, proceed to dilute the waters with real lefties, who do not need to play one on TV.

    Do what you want. You bet I am. (Progressives are) –with as many friends as I can get.
    .
    An actual left is needed. That is what is going on. Nobody is asking.

    Nobody has to. This is what democracy looks like.

    #41115

    Andrew
    Participant

    Missing: “Advantage GOP. See, that tent could include pro labor, Bernie, others. Doesn’t, unless the neoliberal economics are part of the deal. 8n which caee, why bother?”

    Bernie doesn’t want to be under the tent – he doesn’t belong to the Democratic party, remember?

    Being under the big tent means compromising sometimes to get the things you do want.

    If you think it’s better to have a Republican majority but have a pure, powerless Democratic minority in Congress instead, you are sadly wrong. Being in the minority sucks.

    #41116

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    Actually, he does and is.

    Party membership ranges from ordinary people who agree to join.

    Others, including myself, add being elected to that. More is possible in the party for those who do more.

    In electorial politics, party registration is a formal affair, and it has financial terms in addition to compliance with other party rules.

    Bernie is a Democrat and maintains his formal party membership like any member of Congress would.

    He is elected as an indie in VT.

    He could be elected as a Dem nationally.

    There are no conflicts in any of that. Watch carefully. Party officers cannot say Bernie is not a Dem without being in violation of the terms they, and Bernie agreed to for the DNC.

    Other groups are not so bound, and lie frequently.

    Bernie has a base of power to work from. It is not the same base shared by most of the party and that constrains them in ways Bernie does not have to worry about.

    Obama built one. Other Presidents took money, etc. One is needed. Part of why 2016 was a loss. The strength ramped up slower than demsnd did. Things are very different this time.

    Given how our system works, all that is ordinary and expected.

    Membership is open to all on a non-discriminatory basis. The tent is what it’s members say it is.

    Progressives are not asking. They do not have to.

    I am in that tent formally. Bernie is a Dem.

    And he is the strongest candidate vs Trump.

    You will perhaps notice he is simply running for POTUS? He gets to do that.

    The only ones squabbling currently back toxic economic policy they find increasingly hard to sell to increasingly educated voters. That is what we are doing.

    The plan this year is to run on solid policy, on defeating Trump. Field is open for others to post up stronger ideas, and build more competetive orgs.

    The beauty is, should that actually happen, we can immediately support that person.

    Should that not happen, the burden of getting the people behind the strong ideas on board falls on whoever gets the nom. They can get help, but it is on them to sell it.

    That is what Clinton refused to accept.

    We are forcing that strong for all Americans policy discussion. And votes are not a given. They need to be garnered through politicking worth the vote.

    It is the right discussion and it puts the party in a position where it can play along, or defend why it would refuse to do better by all Americans.

    Great politics! That planning began late 2016.

    There is no reason at all to be a minority. The more Dems that run on the strength of this campaign, the more seats we will have.

    Or, not!

    Running on the same failed politics = similar failed outcomes. Those were over 1000 seats lost at one point.

    You want unity, a big win, good times? Best be thinking about all Americans then.

    Join the movement.

    That is what progressives are doing.

    #41117

    Andrew
    Participant

    If Bernie wants to be taken seriously as a Democrat, he needs to join the actual Democratic Party. Or should have years ago.

    #41118

    missing_kskd
    Participant

    He has done exactly that. He is doing what any Democrat would do.

    The point of friction here is all policy.

    Can’t blame him for running on the good ideas he believes in. What else should a candidate for POTUS do?

    Is that not what the others are doing?

    We know Trump is hot bullshit in an orange package.

    Are the others going to follow his lead, or run on what they think will be best for the nation?

    Rather than whine about Bernie and what is looking like a goddamed army at this point, should they not be focused on getting votes?

    This is what democracy looks like.

    I think one hell of a lot of Americans are gonna see a big contrast.

    If you have watched the Bernie stumps so far, it is all straight up solid:

    Who he is, how the campaign needs to work, what people can do

    , then

    whomp on Trump for a while. He’s a big kid, asked for it, with Bernie happy to deliver

    , then

    those ideas. What they mean, how we fund them, etc…

    , then

    Wrap up, calls to action, and on to the next gig.

    Any Dem who is butthurt can and is encouraged to do the same thing

    We all benefit when they do.

    #41120

    Andrew
    Participant

    I would feel better about Bernie running if he were actually a real Democrat. The other candidates joined the party long ago. Bernie joined only when it was helpful for him. Seems very opportunistic.

    All of the other real Democrats running are running on the “ideas they believe in,” too, obviously.

    I agree with Sanders on a number of things, but don’t share his vision for America, and from the last election in November, we can see that not much of the rest of the nation does, either. And I don’t think he has the best chance to beat Trump in 2020. I do not want him to be the nominee. If somehow he is elected president, I don’t think he would be a very effective president. I don’t think his proposals are realistic or have much of a shot at getting through Congress.

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