Another Gay Victory–Financially Ruining a Granny forums forums Politics and other things Another Gay Victory–Financially Ruining a Granny

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    A state judge ruled Wednesday that Washington floral artist and grandmother Barronelle Stutzman must provide full support for wedding ceremonies that are contrary to her faith – a decision at odds with the views of most Americans according to a newAssociated Press-GfK poll. The court claims that Stutzman’s referral of a long-time customer to another business for floral design and support for a same-sex ceremony violated Washington law.

    The court also ruled recently that both the state and the same-sex couple, who each filed lawsuits against her, may collect damages and attorneys’ fees not only from her business, but from Stutzman personally. That means the 70-year-old grandmother may not only lose her business, but also her home and savings because she lives her life and operates her business according to her beliefs.

    “The message of these rulings is unmistakable: the government will bring about your personal and professional ruin if you don’t help celebrate same-sex marriage,” said ADF Senior Counsel Kristen Waggoner, who argued before the court in December. “The two men had no problem getting the flowers they wanted. They received several offers for free flowers, and the marketplace gives them plenty of options. Laws that are supposed to prohibit discrimination might sound good, but the government has begun to use these laws to hurt people – to force them to conform and to silence and punish them if they don’t violate their religious beliefs on marriage.”


    Faith doesn’t give you the right to break the law.

    And I’m just fine with bigot grannies losing their business if this is how they operate.

    How would you feel if you were denied service somewhere becomes you are catholic and the owner doesn’t like pedophiles?


    Oh, Silly Vitalogy!

    Don’t you know that the only opinions and beliefs protected by law and the Constitution are those based on religion? Because it says right there in the First Amendment: Freedom of Religion! And freedom means freedom! Because the language of the Constitution is absolute! Means that religious people can do anything they want, or don’t have to do anything they don’t want to do, if it’s in the name of religious freedom! Because religious freedom! Freedom freedom freedom! And freedom! And the Bible! Hah – can’t argue against the Bible, can you? Of course not, it’s the Bible! The only freedom IS religious freedom! Because Obama’s a socialist! Who doesn’t believe in freedom!

    There – that’s all there is to say. Bet you can’t argue against all that logic, can you?

    Andy Brown

    “because she lives her life and operates her business according to her beliefs.”

    That’s all well and good except when that breaks the law. We are a country of laws and she may practice her faith in her personal life to her heart’s content. What she may not do is operate a business that is in violation of federal, state and/or local laws.

    It’s going to take some more of these before you thickheaded right wing religioids get it straight. In addition, your attempt to amplify the “granny” aspect is beneath even you. What next, a free pass for murder if you’re over the age of 65?


    >>sent to the principal’s office.
    From where I come from that does not work any more for any disciplinary benefit.


    But laws do.

    Washington state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity or expression,

    Good little christians should follow the law to the letter. It’s just so christian.


    Poor business plan or poor misunderstanding of the law or just ignorance and stupidity, got this woman in trouble.

    I’ve done hundreds of wedding receptions over the years. I’ve only done a handful of same-sex receptions, and honestly, they’re really no different from heterosexual weddings. Usually there is a ceremony with witnesses and a wedding party. Everyone gets dressed up. There’s cake, music, dancing….a big celebration…just like every other wedding I’ve done.

    The only reason I couldn’t do or wouldn’t do a wedding would be conflict in scheduling or I simply wanted the day off. In those cases, I always had another qualified DJ willing to do the event.

    When I left the bridal industry, same-sex ceremonies were just becoming a big part of it. If I were to get back into full service wedding DJ work again, I’d firmly plant my advertising towards hetero and same-sex ceremonies. I would make a killing.

    If you are going to discriminate against your potential customers, you’re asking for big problems. This granny, I hope, has learned her lesson.


    She didn’t discriminate in her store. The gay men were previous customers and she knew they were gay. She didn’t want to sanction their event. She provided an alternative service to them.

    Not good enough. They smelled money and meanspirited activists seized the opportunity to thoroughly punish the bigot.

    An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Even if this were a just law the punishment should fit the crime. This is a death sentence for stepping on a toe.


    I’m quite sure the people who didn’t want to serve “the coloreds”, and those people who didn’t want to deal with biracial marriage thought the same sorts of things.

    The reality is bigotry just isn’t OK.

    And getting through that will be painful too.

    How painful?

    A lot of the pain depends on religious leaders. They could help this along and save a lot of people from painful experiences and do the targets of bigotry a real solid too.

    And some of them are! Good on them.

    A bunch more of this depends on people and their willingness to get along with other people.

    Some of us are very willing and won’t experience much pain at all, and will help others to get there. Good.

    Holdouts are just going to have to learn the hard way. It’s not like we haven’t seen this before. Truth is, this kind of thing happens every time.

    There is help out there. All people need to do is ask.

    Now this: She didn’t discriminate in her store.


    This isn’t grade school. It’s not like a game of tag, or some other shallow thing. Get real.

    They had a business relationship, and her customer approached her to do business.

    She refused because they are gay and that’s not legal, nor should it be.

    Religious freedom does not include freedom to discriminate, and that’s the hard lesson we’ve got to get through today.

    And we will. It’s just going to take some time.


    Oh, and how much pain will she experience?

    Depends on her. If she is a total bitch about it, that’s going to boil down to more pain.

    On the other hand, if she owns it and does what it takes to resolve the matter, that’s going to be far less pain.

    Sort of like the little kid who refuses some basic dicipline. It goes harder and harder, or it ends quick, all depending on how they present themselves.


    She didn’t want to put her stamp of approval on an immoral “marriage” and I don’t blame her.

    I wouldn’t cater a KKK event either.

    There is more to this than equal rights. This is an “in your face” heavy handed approach of forcing others to violate their own consciences. And if they don’t capitulate, they won’t be reprimanded, they’ll be destroyed.


    Tough shit.


    People choose the Klan. That is the difference.


    So what if people choose the Klan? So what if that’s their religion? You better not turn them down because of it.

    I could go to a baker and ask her to make a cake for a celebration at our church, and ask for a picture of the Virgin Mary on the cake. But what if the baker thinks, as some non Catholic Christians do, that we “worship” Mary and she didn’t want to participate in that? It might violate her conscience to do that, and if she turned down the job, I would understand. I could go somewhere else. I’m a nice guy and I’m reasonable. I don’t need to get some cash out of her for “damages” because no harm has been done. And it might help her think better of Catholics if I didn’t make a big deal about it and tried to understand her position (unlike the gays who were so anxious to sue and to destroy a woman over a few flowers).

    It would be a different story, however, if she wouldn’t allow me to buy cupcakes off the shelf because of my religion.

    Understand the difference now?


    Soooo…Bigotry and discrimination is OK as long as you’re cool with it. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

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