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The Virtue of Selfishness?

(83 posts)
  • Started 7 months ago by littlesongs
  • Latest reply from Amus

  1. "Two weeks ago, as winter began to take hold in the city, Portland City Commissioner Nick Fish, in charge of the city’s housing bureau, and county Commissioner Deborah Kafoury sent an unusual letter to 239 Portland area churches (and one synagogue). Typically, city officials writing to private institutions, even religious ones, are making demands. This letter was more in the form of a plea – to help house homeless families.

    As of last week, neither Fish nor Kafoury had heard from any churches willing to answer their plea. If history is any guide, they aren’t likely to."

    Portland Tribune

    This article is quite disheartening when you consider the weather we have had for the past week. I can only guess that Matthew 25:31-46 was redacted from their copies of the Bible.

    Posted on December 12, 2009 - 10:54 PM #
  2. Skybill9

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    I remember hearing on KOIN about several Churches opening their doors to homeless people.

    I don't recall which ones, but there were a few anyway.

    But yeah, there should be more when the weather is so cold.

    However, in their defense, you'd have to know the whole story on why they didn't/couldn't. Maybe budget constraints or liability issues? Just a thought.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:13 AM #
  3. This response in the Portland Tribune took some of the words out of my mouth:

    Well Padre...
    The reason is that both the City of Portland and the state of Oregon, are run by liberal Democrats that hate Christians and what they stand for. They despise morality, standards, or anything that interferes with their libertine attitudes.

    Having a homosexual Mayor that preys on minors, no problem. A lesbian Secy of State that likes to suck face in public with an E list female celebrity, sure...just fine. Streets awash with beggars and late stage alcoholics drawn from other places due to their permissive policies...just swell.

    They waist millions of dollars on MAX, streetcars, esplanades, etc. with no thought of the burden to the taxpayer or how their idiot policies are destroying the quality of life here.

    Then, in a panic, they come crying and begging to those that they revile and smear the other 364 days of the year. I'm not a Christian. But seeing how they are treated by the Left in this state, and the U.S., makes me extremely angry.

    Your book teaches you to forgive and turn the other cheek Padre, you're a better man than I.

    If I were I asked the same by the City, the Trib couldn't print my response.

    Signed,
    (name withheld)

    Thousands of Portland area people of faith and their churches give huge amounts of time, money and resources to those in need every day. They do it without being asked or sending out press releases touting their works.

    What a pathetically weak and feeble attempt at bashing Christians on this forum and in The Tribune. Grow up.

    Since they have more space, staff and resources, why not send a similar request to area schools, hospitals, government buildings? And then you could quote scripture to them when they don't respond.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 08:29 AM #
  4. Welcome back Michael, The Portland Tribune is published and owned by Robert Pamplin, a devote Christian, so I find hard to believe he would publish a piece that was anti-Christian.

    Also, what does having a homosexual mayor or a lesbian Secretary of State have to do with anything other than hate?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:29 AM #
  5. Brianl

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    So, Michael, what kind of a good Christian word are the churches spreading by 1) not helping out those in need and opening their doors to those less fortunate, so they don't literally freeze to death and 2) by your admission (and the admission of the "letter writer"), doing so because they don't agree with the "liberal Democrats", the homosexual mayor or the Secretary of State that is a lesbian?

    Ask yourself, What would Jesus do? Would He turn the other way and shut these people out because they didn't have the same philosophy? Or would he do what he DID, turn water into wine, etc.? (Chris, Broadway, help me out here).

    The churches have the right to do whatever they please, and even if I don't agree with it, it's their right. To insinuate that they don't do it because they are turning their backs on the Portland community in a time of need solely because of the politics, and the fact that we have a gay mayor, is dangerous and ludicrous.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:31 AM #
  6. Hey, Brian, Michael is a *good* Christian.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:43 AM #
  7. One of the reasons I didn't belong to a chruch for the last fifteen years. Is that they can take in money, but don't live the bible definition of a "church" Instead of preaching the word of GOD. They make people feel good. Most do little to nothing helping the poor. Remember what Jesus said. If you do this to the least of these my breatheren, you have done it unto me. You may find it hard to believe. But here in Vegas we have a lot bigger faith community than in Oregon. I wonder if Jesus came up to the door of the average "church" would anyone reconize him?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:55 AM #
  8. Shyguy

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    Posts: 195

    I have been having an ongoing conversation with the subject of homelessness in Salem with a case manager at the Salvation Army shelter.

    It has gotten really bad in the Salem area. And will only continue to get worse. So I am going to guess that one of the factors is that religous non profits are strapped for resources ie beds.

    Second the state does not want to acknowledge exactly how many homeless there really are within the Salem metro area. According to the Salem SA shelter case manager the numbers are not reported accurately ever and that has been going on for some time now.

    I am going to guess that these are some of the same reasons in Portland.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 10:43 AM #
  9. Vitalogy

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    Michael, thanks for reminding us why christians like yourself are nothing more than bigoted, selfish assholes that live a life of hypocrisy while judging others. Screw you.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:05 AM #
  10. LP - Pamplin's reputation as a "Christian" is an embarrasment. He's up there with those big-haired freaks on TBN. He's "Christian" when it behooves his wallet. His Christian retail stores are insulting.

    The way I took the writer's reference to the Mayor and Secy of State is this; (hang on-here comes that "hateful" Christian attitude) Their lifestyles are an afront to our morals. My saying that is going to be branded as "hate" and "intolerant," which you've already done. It always cracks me up that Christians are to be tolerant and loving of others behavior and beliefs but that attitude never seems to come back in our direction.

    So churches and their members are bashed year-round for their "hate" and when they don't respond to a politician's grandstanding request to house homeless they catch more crap from the ones that scream "hate" in their direction year round.

    Take a look at the charitable donations comparing "religous" people to the secular. Those "hateful" church people give almost twice as much as a percentage of income than do the loving, caring but God-hating athiests. They are putting their money, their time and their efforts where their mouths are. I believe, I know, that most make an effort all the time, in every season, to help those in need with their money and their time.

    Brain, I don't believe that they're turning their backs for any reason other than logistics and perhaps liability. Something like 80% of the volunteer hours in a typical church come from retired and/or widowed women. Sure, let's ask the old ladies to spend the night in the church basement with the homeless. They'd jump on that ministry! And for the record, I believe that Christian men should be ashamed for not stepping up more than we do.

    And no comments on asking schools, government buildings or hospitals?

    Steve, you are right on. There are decent churches out there though. Don't write them all off.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:23 AM #
  11. Vitalogy - Love you too!

    It's precious comments like yours that made me take a break from this board. A person can take just so much love. Your "tolerance" only goes in one direction apparantly.

    Tell me Vit, how have you given back lately? Want to see a list of my charitible giving or the hours I've put in volunteering? Want to compare our "lists" to see who puts more "love" our there? Or are you more a "words without deeds" person?

    And yeah, I admit to being judgmental. There is right and there is wrong. There is good and there is bad. And I make those judgements all the time. Just as you have judged me.

    Shy, the homeless numbers are terrible. A few years ago I participated in an effort to count homeless in Clackamas County. It was estimated to be I think like 5,500 at the time, 40% being children. And this was when times were good. Yes, giving to most churches has been hit hard and their efforts to help the homeless and others are suffering. Anything we can do helps and is appreciated.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:44 AM #
  12. Brianl

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    "The way I took the writer's reference to the Mayor and Secy of State is this; (hang on-here comes that "hateful" Christian attitude) Their lifestyles are an afront to our morals."

    And the writer is entitled to his or her opinion. No problem.

    The GLBT community is the last bastion of legalized, openly encouraged bigotry and discrimination. To be honest, what the hell does the sexual orientation of the mayor or Secretary of State have to do with a damn thing? The issue at hand with Sam Adams has to do with someone who may not have been of legal consenting age, not with gender.

    And oftentimes, schools and government buildings ARE used for emergency shelters, etc. I don't think the recent cold snap we had classifies in that capacity, like a tornado, hurricane, earthquake, flooding, etc. would. Hospitals I would say no, that's asking for a big issue of people off the streets who may have the flu, cold, etc. getting people in the hospital sick, etc. Plus most hospitals are already pretty full with patients. Also, how are schools and government buildings supposed to function if full of homeless people?

    I agree with Steve, there ARE decent churches out there. But as a general whole, the Christian faith, of most denominations, I cannot support. I saw how they treated my mother when I was growing up, with her coming to grips with who she is, and there is no way in hell I will allow myself to be a part of that.

    "It always cracks me up that Christians are to be tolerant and loving of others behavior and beliefs but that attitude never seems to come back in our direction."

    It's hard for most of us to give credence to the Christians when the face of the faith happens to be people like Pat Robertson and his ilk. The "God hates fags" folks, "fundamentalist Christians". If we follow the word of the Bible, where is this vitriol? Again, ask what Jesus would do. Turning on your back on your fellow man because of his sexual orientation, is that what Jesus would do? That is exactly what a lot of the white Christians in the South did for a couple hundred years (and some STILL do) to justify their racism against African-Americans. Just like there's the "God hates fags" folks now, there were the "God demands segregation" folks then.

    Same damn thing.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:50 AM #
  13. Amus

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    "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
    -Mahatma Gandhi

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 12:42 PM #
  14. Andrew

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    MichaelW: The way I took the writer's reference to the Mayor and Secy of State is this; (hang on-here comes that "hateful" Christian attitude) Their lifestyles are an afront to our morals.

    Maybe your "lifestyle" is an affront to MY "morals" too, Michael. Why can't you live your life in a way I find morally acceptable???

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 12:52 PM #
  15. Brian - I certainly didn't mean for this to turn into a GLBT thing. And I don't think that's what the writer of the original comments intended either.

    This Christian doesn't hate them. I think their lifestyle is deplorable, unhealthy and disgusting and that they are very confused. But I don't hate them. And I wouldn't turn my back on them.

    I do hate that our society encourages and applaudes cross-dressing but is intolerant of cross displaying or cross wearing. Something is really wrong with that picture. And I'll be labeled a hateful bigot for suggesting that.

    I think that the letter writer suggested that with an ongoing anti-Christian sentiment put out there all the time (this board for example) that when churches don't jump to a whim from a politician that they catch crap for it. Yet more proof of their bigoted hatefulness.

    I agree with you about the "face of faith." It's sad that non-Christians have Robertson and the others to point to as examples of my faith. Many of those "faces" are an embarrasment to the rest of us and not representative of Christianity.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:12 PM #
  16. No amount of good works balances the bad of discrimination.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:14 PM #
  17. Speaking of liability and morality and following the law read this link regarding the Homeless. This is an example of what happened in my community and the roles of the various players in all of this.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_wa_homeless_storage.html

    http://www.tri-cityherald.com/yahoonews/story/825856.html

    Not covered in this short article : The owner of the storage facility didnt want to toss these people out especially this last week because of the cold weather despite their space heater causing him to have to pay about 140 dollars for electricity last month. Then there is the deputy Fire Marshall , whom I know , that had to kick them out of the storage unit last Thursday because of code enforcement. These people dont qualify for Welfare because he gets intermittent jobs, but not enough to rent some place for 500 or 600 a month, dont want to go to the Mission for various reasons and so they were living in their storage unit that they pay 50 bucks a month to store their furniture. She cant work, but hasnt been able to obtain any disability yet.

    I believe they wound up at the Pasco Mission, in seperate dormitories, they dont like to be seperated. Storage unit inhabitation has become quite popular in America and similar episodes are occuring daily in our great land.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:44 PM #
  18. Andrew

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    MichaelW: I do hate that our society encourages and applaudes cross-dressing but is intolerant of cross displaying or cross wearing. Something is really wrong with that picture.

    Well, you're exactly wrong: "society" does not "encourage" or "applaud" cross-dressing, nor is it "intolerant" of people wearing or displaying crosses. You're confusing "tolerance" with "encouragement."

    And I'll be labeled a hateful bigot for suggesting that.

    Hateful, no. Ignorant, yes.

    No one says you have to LIKE people who live lifestyles you personally don't agree with. But, like you, they are people in our society, they pay taxes, and they have a right to TOLERANCE. You don't have to like them, but you have to put up with them, just as they don't have to like YOU, but they have to put up with you, too.

    As for me, I'm neither gay nor Christian, and at times I find certain individuals who label themselves as such offensive and obnoxious. But I also have good friends who are gay or lesbian as well as good friends who are devout Christians. I'd like to think I'm wise enough not to label all gays as offensive or all Christians as offense just because of a few idiots. I judge people as individuals, not as stereotypes, and try to tolerate everyone...and avoid the individuals I can't stand!

    Why do you have to dismiss and condemn whole groups of people instead of judging them individually? Sorry, that's just ignorant and bigoted - no other way to say it.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:46 PM #
  19. Andrew

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    As for the original topic: I think the churches have valid reasons to be cautious and not blindly open their doors to anyone who wants to get out of the cold.

    The truth is, there are several types of "homeless" people. Yes, there are those who were unfortunate but lost their jobs and their homes, but there are others that are more appropriately "street people." These are people who seem not to want to work or fit into society in any way and may be big-time drug users and alcoholics. Or they may mentally ill people (the saddest of all, I think), who are not taking their medication and can be out of control. If I ran a church, I sure as hell wouldn't want THOSE people staying at my church.

    I don't think churches on their own should be housing homeless people - maybe the city in conjunction with churches could do so, but somehow that seems like a government function. Anyone who is homeless and not an alcoholic, drug user, or violent person should be offered basic food and shelter in our society. (And if you are alcoholic or drug-addicted, treatment should be available for those who WANT help.) Churches already help in some of these areas and could perhaps do more, maybe in a partnership with government. But I don't expect churches to take on the burden of figuring out which "homeless" people are non-violent and not going to ransack their church and which ones are self-destructive and a danger to others.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 01:54 PM #
  20. I find it ironic to see organized religion escalating the very hate that now makes housing people risky and costly inhibiting their ability to get the word out.

    When the costs of just helping to catch the ear of somebody down and out reaches a point where that just can't happen, perhaps they will learn the discrimination lesson proper. Until then, I totally support reasonable and non-discriminatory help as a service our society provides. Yes, that means using our tax dollars for that, without the dogma attached, as the dogma is a big part of why so many are there in the first place.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 02:00 PM #
  21. Andrew - we're in complete agreement on housing the homeless. Many churches do what they can to help that segment of society on a regular basis. As you pointed out, there's a difference between a single mom with a car full of kids and a mentally ill, middle-aged street person. But they're both homeless.

    Of course I'd judge anyone as the individual that they are. And I would have a different judgement of the homeless mom than I would the homeless tweeker. But again, they both could be called homeless.

    I don't give a crap about gays other than I think they've got it wrong. My feelings aside, their lifestyle is killing them. Check the stats on the mortality rate, the suicides, the diseases. My "bigotry" and "ignorance" isn't killing them; they are killing themselves. And while many people and groups bash churches and Christians for their "hate," those same churches and Christians are doing far more to reach out to these poor people, regardless of lifestyle, than the ones bashing them.

    And no Missing, it's not about deeds. It's about putting out more efforts than words. It's about "doing," not just "talking" about it or bashing others for their efforts.

    Go ahead...bash away.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 03:06 PM #
  22. Andrew

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    Michael, if you'd like to have a discussion about the lifestyles that have the highest and lowest statistical rates of suicide or disease and why that may be, feel free to start a separate thread. But it's good to know that you disapprove of a gay lifestyle for men not because of "morality" but because of how you think their behavior affects their own mortality. It's helpful to note that lesbians have by far the lowest level of Sexually Transmitted Diseases compared to straight women (and men gay or straight). I'm sure that this will persuade you to encourage your daughters, granddaughters, and nieces how important it is to live a lesbian lifestyle, since statistically that's better for them. You wouldn't want their "straight" lifestyle to kill them, after all...

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 03:33 PM #
  23. Thank you all for engaging this topic with a lively discussion. Some very good points have emerged in spite of the usual bigoted drivel.

    It is articles like this that make me wonder why many churches even exist. If they are not contributing members of the community, what is their purpose? The cold hard fact is that all taxpayers are forced to subsidize religion. Churches pay nothing for government, infrastructure, fire services, police protection and all the other things that make our country go. When the property is not taxed and the income is not taxed, those funds are made up by believer and non-believer alike. Communities should expect something in return during a crisis and their leaders have the right to ask.

    I find it interesting that for all the bombastic pulpit pounding and not so artful dodging that this thread provoked, only Steve knew the Bible passage that I referred to in my initial post. While we have not always seen eye to eye, I really appreciate that Steve actually reads the scriptures. Furthermore, he understands why "prosperity gospel" is not a Christian path in principle nor in practice.

    No other kind of non-profit corporation has the luxury of tax free status whether they truly qualify under 501(c)(3) or not. Churches have abused that exemption long enough. Religion cannot be regulated by Congress, but there is nothing in the Constitution that speaks to municipalities. In this economy, it might be wise for city councils to consider these gilded palaces of selfishness and intolerance as potential sources of revenue. For instance, New York City has draconian laws against guns, free speech and assembly. If the city wanted to tax churches that did not qualify as non-profits, there would no doubt be an outcry, but the precedent is there for those rules to stick.

    If all of this seems scary to folks who worship in a big fancy church, they just don't see the big picture: Jesus was born in a barn because nobody had room for his family!

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 04:28 PM #
  24. Andrew - It's telling how you won't acknowledge when we're in agreement. Just can't bring yourself to do that can you? And it's always cracked me up how the regulars here pick and choose what to respond to. I think I'll try that!

    Okay, so let's get back to bad-mouthing those ignorant, hate-filled, bigoted, hypocrite Christians for not opening up their churches in the cold weather. You know, the way we in the enlightened segment of society opened our arms, homes, businesses and wallets to the homeless? (insert cricket sfx)

    I noticed the tag "MichaelW = Joel." Not true, but I'll take that as a compliment.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 04:44 PM #
  25. Vitalogy

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    "Okay, so let's get back to bad-mouthing those ignorant, hate-filled, bigoted, hypocrite Christians for not opening up their churches in the cold weather."

    With responses like the one featured in the Portland Tribune, there's no need to bash. You guys bash yourselves just fine, and even better when in print for all to see.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 04:48 PM #
  26. Andrew

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    I agree, Vitalogy. That Portland Tribune letter speaks VOLUMES about the person who wrote it AND about the person who re-posted it here (claiming to agree with it).

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 04:53 PM #
  27. Andrew

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    Michael, I'm glad you have realized that being a lesbian is a more responsible lifestyle choice for a woman than being a straight woman, since it is statistically safer. Too bad you can't admit we agree on this!

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 04:54 PM #
  28. It's also statically safer to have an abortion than to carry to full term. Just saying.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 05:01 PM #
  29. Brianl

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    Michael - you say you have no problem with GLBT people, but have issues with behaviors like cross dressing, etc. First off, that is a very small population of the GLBT community, and many gay people are also "offended" by that behavior in the sense that it's a stereotype they have no desire to be associated with. Second, if it so greatly offends you, don't partake in it.

    Another thing, trust me, you do NOT want to take any Joel comparisons as a compliment. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 05:40 PM #
  30. I was just reading some of your posts on The Presidents thread.

    It's no wonder you're all such blow-hard, know-it-alls; you're all young! And you had me fooled into thinking I was having exchanges with mature individuals.

    Born during Nixon? Crap, I was going door-to-door against Nixon when you were being conceived in the back of the Mustang! The bastard resigned during my airshift!

    My apologies; I just thought you were liberal, ignorant and closed-minded. I always thought that only older people were closed-minded but you younger ones have shown me otherwise.

    I know, I know; you still believe you have all the answers. I understand. Used to think that myself. I'm sorry if I upset your innocent young sensibilities.

    Get some miles on you then we'll talk. Get a life and maybe some opinions of your own and then you can comment on someone else's.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:00 PM #
  31. Andrew

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    Posts: 947

    MichaelW: It's no wonder you're all such blow-hard, know-it-alls; you're all young! And you had me fooled into thinking I was having exchanges with mature individuals.

    To be fair, I knew what kind of person you were from your first post on this thread...

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:04 PM #
  32. Michael, when called on bigotry, or potential discrimination, the first thing seen was "man, look at all the good works..."

    My only point was that no amount of good balances discrimination like that. It's wrong, always wrong, always does harm, and just never, ever ok.

    That is what the entire idea of civil rights movements are all about.

    I bring this to light, not to bash on the good works. They are good, regardless. It's to differentiate between that and discrimination.

    They are separate issues. One cannot justify the other. Given the "look at all the good work" response is the number one I get when I press somebody on discrimination, I think quite a few people are sucked into the idea that if their organization is doing a lot of good, some bigotry, racism and other forms of discrimination can be overlooked.

    It can't, because those people so discriminated against, still feel the harm, no matter how much other good has been done.

    As for the "too young" argument, that's a dodge straight off the list. I can call out the numbers, if you like!

    Ones age, bank account, good karma account, or stature has nothing to do with the merits of the arguments put forward.

    Rather than say, "oh, these people are too young" to yourself, as that nice, easy out, why not come back and detail WHY us "young'ns" have it so wrong?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:19 PM #
  33. Brianl

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    Michael, I was more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You seemed reasonable enough despite parroting a letter to the editor blasting the Portland mayor and the Oregon secretary of state solely based on their sexual orientation. I was more than happy to open a civilized, educated dialogue with you.

    You flushed that with your blast about my age, and assumption I was conceived in the back of a Mustang. Very class. You know nothing about me, my views, my life or philosophy, yet I must be some "young, ignorant liberal".

    With all due respect sir, you can kiss my ass. No more Mr. Nice Guy here.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:33 PM #
  34. This letter contains blatent discrimination that is just not ok.

    "Having a homosexual Mayor that preys on minors, no problem."

    Let's fix that. Having a Mayor that preys on minors IS A PROBLEM. Whether or not he's gay has nothing to do with the matter.

    And of course...

    "A lesbian Secy of State that likes to suck face in public with an E list female celebrity"

    Same deal, having a Secy of State that likes to suck face in public..."

    Again, gay or not has nothing to do with the matter.

    And this one:

    "I'm not a Christian. But seeing how they are treated by the Left in this state"

    Well, selling hate has it's price, and that price is firm and consistent social pressure, legal and civil pressure to knock it off and let people be who they were born to be. I support 100 percent all non-violent efforts to raise the cost of that hate to be as high as possible, ideally high enough to check this growing movement to discriminate.

    Everybody values the help to the needy. No question. Most of us don't like the hate and intolerance to those people, who they believe are making life choices, when the reality is they are born that way.

    That's the problem, and Christians in this nation have a very large fraction of their sect who do exactly that, fueled on by the likes of Dobson, who is currently making money exporting his brand of hate to South America, where bands of vigilante killers go around "cleansing" their towns, violently killing gay people, in the name of Jesus Christ.

    I can't count all the ways that is fucked up. Well, I can, but it would take a while, so let's just say it's really fucked up.

    These hate centers, otherwise known as churches, leverage their tax exempt status, "to get the word out" and collect money to fund their outreach efforts, build the organization, and export this shit to other nations. Lovely.

    All the bitching about persecution avoids those ugly issues most of the time, focusing on all the "good people", doing "good work" instead.

    Frankly, when that kind of thing gets tax exempt status, I'm subsidizing that, and really don't want to be a part of it at all.

    None of that has anything to do with freedom of religion, which I support completely. None of that has anything to do with all the good works being done too. Good on them for that.

    The persecution going on, is social push-back against hate and intolerance, and is their own damn fault.

    Hell, this movement toward "moral purity" is working double over time to help pass legislation in Uganda that would not only criminalize gay people, for who they are, but legalize the execution of them, full up, straight on Hitler style!

    I know lots of good people will suffer and die, at the hands of ignorant and intolerant zealots, until we push back and shut them down, and that is exactly what angers that person in the letter.

    They are wrong, can't live with the reality of it, and would do anything not to be faced with it as a matter of law. They didn't do the work to socialize like the rest of us did, and prefer to validate that failure of character through religion, rather than face the ugliness of it and do the work to remedy it.

    These kind of people are cowards, straight up, lacking the personal strength to get along.

    Most interestingly, we wouldn't need hard ass laws about this kind of thing, if they were not escalating the conflict as they are. They are their own worst enemy there. Too much escalation, and laws get passed and case law precident gets set.

    I carry an ACLU membership, and am totally active in the political fight to push the hate back into the rank hole it came from, and if that's "too young", or whatever, then tough shit.

    Discrimination of this kind is just flat out, not ok, ever.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:42 PM #
  35. (Thank you Missing.)

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:48 PM #
  36. Continued...

    It is my sincere hope that the cost of enabling haters to hate like that grows to the point where the non-hating Christians in this nation see fit to clean up their own ranks and take the faith back.

    That's true for any sect, creed, faith, group that chooses to empower people to discriminate. It's just not ok to criminalize who people are, and persecute them for it.

    Before anybody even says it, the "persecution" going on right now is an artifact of those people, WHO CHOSE to go down this road, and is not the same thing at all as being hated on for who one is, where a choice was not made.

    Gay is not a choice. Black is not a choice. Female is not a choice. (Female of mind or male of mind is not a choice, and is likely caused by drugs in plastics that impact the development of our sexual brain centers), young is not a choice, and old is not a choice either.

    No form of discrimination against people in these various states is ok.

    Why?

    Accountability. That's why.

    If they didn't have a choice in the matter, how then can they be accountable for who they simply are?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 06:50 PM #
  37. Michael, being either tried and true or old and obsolete are different sides of the same coin. A real classic maintains the ability to be useful, while a decrepit piece of junk serves no purpose at all. Which of these two categories do you fall into?

    I am happy to be alive. I do take a bit of comfort in the fact that I have learned quite a bit during my short four decades on this planet. However, that does not hinder me from further growth. Because my journey is progressive, I do not suffer from "hardening of the attitudes" and therefore continue to learn more and more each day.

    The difference between leaving a debt or a legacy is a fine one. I have great respect for my elders, but that respect has been earned every single step of the way. Respect is the result of freely sharing wisdom, not stubbornly flaunting ignorance. You are not automatically entitled to anything at all for longevity. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

    We young 'uns -- as well as the young at heart -- have spent our lives trying to clean up after your half century frat party. In spite of the mess that many in your generation made of our beloved country, we do not take comfort in the knowledge that your days are numbered. Still, when your time comes, we will be prepared. In fact, we have already sharpened the shovels.

    By the by, have you given any thought at all to addressing the original topic in a cogent and cohesive manner? Or, would you just like to continue on with the incoherent fits of rage, sputtering bigotry and pointless pontification from your squeaky rocking chair?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 07:24 PM #
  38. Classic leftist illogic.

    Flog the Christians and everything they stand for...that is, until the house of sand built by anti-Christian bigotry caves in. THEN it's all about expecting perfection by those formerly deemed pariahs.

    And by the way, if you haven't heard about Pastor Luis Palau's service to communities like Portland, catch a clue here:

    http://media.palau.org/uploads/presskit/SOS-MEDIAsheet.pdf

    breH

    P.S. Merry Christmas.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 07:55 PM #
  39. Andrew

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 947

    Happy Festivus, Herb!!!

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 08:01 PM #
  40. Herb, you're backwards, what anti-Christian bigotry are you speaking about?

    P.S. Happy Holidays, Herb.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 08:05 PM #
  41. Brianl

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 1,211

    Herb - I truly wish that more Christians, especially prominent, public figure Christians, were like Luis Palau and Billy Graham. True believers who practice what they preach, and men I truly admire.

    You have to admit the Pat Robertsons of the world, the Dobsons, make you guys look like clowns.

    Merry Christmas, Herb.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 08:14 PM #
  42. Flog the Christians "for everything they stand for"... Really?

    And what are those things they stand for exactly that are at issue here?

    The absolute minimum burden for "classic leftist illogic" is to name one value I referred to in my posts above, detail how I am wrong to advocate pushing back on it, and where that connects to future expectations of perfection.

    Go ahead, I double dare you. There isn't a one here that can do it, because that is complete and utter crap.

    This discrimination is just not ok. Never was, never is, never will be, and the sooner we get to that realization, the better off organized religion will be, and that's a fact.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:04 PM #
  43. Whoa! Where to begin...

    Brian - You seem to be fair-minded and articulate, but humorless and thin-skinned. Perhaps the back seat of the Mustang reference was not that funny. Maybe only old guys relate to that one. Brian, that was supposed to be a "funny." Lighten up. Trust me though, most parents, the ones from my generation - born in the 1950's, became very familiar with each other in the back seats of Mustangs, Camaros, Valiants and even Beetles.

    If it's offensive to you that I suggested your parents may have "done it" in a car, I'm truly sorry about that. Of course it could have been in a closet, in a park, in a rest room, under the bleachers, in an elevator or even a hot tub; a bed was rarely used. Somewhere along the way though, your parents "did it" with each other. Gross to think about that, huh?

    And if that offends you, again, lighten up. Remember, I'm the easily offended "Christian" here, not you. Please don't react like an old church lady.

    Littlesongs - "sharpening the shovels" is a funny line. I'm going to steal it sometime. I mentioned going door-to-door to campaign for McGovern running against Nixon in 1972. I did that feeling that Nixon's generation had screwed it up for my generation. You're feeling the same things I did, that most of us first time voters felt in '72. You might think Bush and Reagan fouled it up, we thought Nixon and Johnson did. The president's names have changed, the discontent of the youth has not.

    You don't honestly think that your generation has a patent on not trusting older people do you? Quoting Keith Richards to George Michael, "Go home an' fuckin' shave kid." Do I have to explain who Keith Richards is now? Should I explain that line?

    I thought I tried to take it back to the original topic a couple of times; ineffective obviously. I'll come back to that in a bit.

    Missing - Whew, I'd forgotten about your posts. Holy smokes can you write! It's mostly a crock of misguided and ill-informed shit but you sure present it well.

    Not sure how you're forming your opinions on Dobson, but they're flat wrong. Unless you're privy to some secret underground Dobson sect I'm not familiar with, those stories are way out of whack. He does preach biblical values and a life based on them. He does not espouse hate or violence or taking lives. That must be some Keith Olberman crap, because it certainly isn't factual.

    Got a link to a source other than MSNBC, Huffington or the like with that story? If that were true, how come it's not mainstream? You know the "birther" crowd? I think you're onto the opposite extreme. It's really, really "out there."

    The whack-job church in Oregon City possibly being the exception, and I do believe that letting children die instead of seeking medical treatment is criminal, I know of no churches in the Portland metro area that preach hate, violence, discrimination, bigotry or intolerance against anyone. I do know of Christians that have been discriminated against in schools and on the job. (Missing - still waiting for your ACLU to step forward for my bible thumper friends...I'll hold my breath.)

    The Tribune article called out the churches for not responding to Fish's letter. Those churches respond every day in hundreds of ways; I've seen them in action. Outside of the government, can anyone point to any non-faith based similar efforts? They're few and far between.

    And really, it's not about the "doing" out of guilt or religon or whatever; it's about the "doing" because it's the right thing to do. That's it. Not expecting an eternity in Heaven or write-ups in the paper or a segment on KOIN. Just doing it because human beings are supposed to do for others without expecting anything in return.

    Again Missing, I hope you're not forming opinions on my faith based on the extremist haters of it or the extreme whackos from it. I think you're sharper than that.

    And Littlesong, another great line, a fine line between leaving debt or legacy. What will your grandchildren say about these times you're leaving them...legacy or debt? Get the rocking chair ready for the old stories buddy. The years fly by.

    Will you be able to tell them about being part of the solution or part of the problem? (Holy crap - the old Christian just paraphrased Eldridge Cleaver. Google him young man.)

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:15 PM #
  44. Michael, what does any of this have to do with the local churches that refused to temporarily house homeless families during our recent winter storm?

    Gosh golly gee whiz, maybe I should call you Wally. Can I borrow your slingshot, Wally?

    You really went door to door in an effort to get McGovern elected? If every boomer who spun that tired old yarn had actually hit the pavement, Nixon would have lost in '72 by a mile. Revisionist personal history means nothing coming from a guy who wants me to "Google" Eldridge Cleaver. I have read his books while you have only read his quotes. You obviously did not campaign door to door for Shirley Chisholm either, but at least you had the sense not to lie about it.

    "Do I have to explain who Keith Richards is now?"

    No, but I suppose I'll have to explain the genius of Robert Johnson and many others. Keith Richards was once a very talented British musician who made millions by appropriating and rearranging traditional African-American blues. These days, Keith tours the world when he needs a few more million, goes through the motions and hides his take on a tax free island. To keep him alive, they have to change his blood like transmission fluid. I do enjoy the Stones, but they are a prime example of the pathetic excess and cultural vampirism of the "me" generation.

    As the years race past, I love the irony of boomers who don't trust anyone under fifty.

    So, I say again, what does any of this have to do with the local churches that refused to temporarily house homeless families during our recent winter storm?

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 09:58 PM #
  45. This is not a pleasant entry story to what I'm writing about.

    http://julydogs.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/from-focus-on-the-family-to-la-familia-michoacana/

    I can bring you a very complete and detailed time-line of dominionists and their export of hate for profit under the guise of being Christians.

    And if I'm ill-informed, it should be NO problem to get things properly sorted, right? Or is it that I am young, or a leftist?

    There are about 12 solid, known dodges left. Feel free to work through those, or discuss the matter proper. I'm good either way.

    As for my opinions of your faith? Irrelevant. It's a personal thing for you, as it is for anyone. Organized religion isn't something I care to entertain, given my earlier life experiences with it.

    What I am saying is people are identifying with "persecution", but failing to recognize when people, like Dobson, operate under the cloak of their faith. So anger, resentment comes to the surface, bad things happen, bad people happen, and we lose most all of what the faith is supposed to bring.

    For me personally, it is better to simply work at those things, leaving faith for those who feel they need it.

    Coming back around full circle then, the letter is actually ill-informed ranting, coupled with discriminatory views, leading to a useless for anything but furthering the hate, conclusion.

    As for the churches, in this more violent time, I can't blame them for turning some away, so long as they are not doing it in a discriminatory way, as in helping not-gay homeless people, for example.

    Your friends are welcome to call for a discrimination case. All comers are, faith or not, the ACLU does only step for your rights, whatever you think they are. Ask Fallwell about how well they supported him, despite all the negative things said over the years.

    Unlike being gay, choosing a faith is something we all do, and can be held accountable for. However, it is the law that we do not discriminate on people for their religious views, meaning those friends would be entitled to some court remedy, and I would support them in that.

    There is no problem with being Christian, or Muslim, or any faith. The problem is discriminators operating under the faith, using a kind of "God Hates Fags" as a crutch to justify their actions, while other members of that same faith fail to call them out on it.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 10:01 PM #
  46. trixter

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 3,214

    Micheal W seems to have taken Joelin's place here on this board...

    My apologies; I just thought you were liberal, ignorant and closed-minded.

    That would be the neo-CONers Mikey!

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 10:29 PM #
  47. Everyone should read what Missing has brought to this discussion. It vividly shows the results of Christian fundamentalism and hate-based theology.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 10:31 PM #
  48. Hey Missing nobody is asking Falwell anything these days as he is pushing up Daisies. But the ACLU did help him win one.

    http://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/win-rev-falwell-and-aclu-judge-rules-va-must-allow-churches-incorporate

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 10:47 PM #
  49. Missing, Seriously...you actually believe that blog about Eldridge? Really? That's the source? You're kidding, right?

    And Littlesong...whatever you say...you run with that stuff man. You've got "it" all figured out.

    And you guys are talking to me about hate and lies and tolerance? Amazing! So clueless and gullible.

    Enjoy yourselves.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:15 PM #
  50. That was exactly my point. Rights are rights, and the ACLU, of all groups, is absolutely not discriminatory.

    It was a gaffe that I said, "ask Fallwell". Whoops. It happens, what can I say?

    I need to make it extremely clear:

    Faith, or not, that is our right, and I support anyone in this. We all should, because this is a very powerful and American statement of equality that much of the world looks up to us for. It is not something any of us should take lightly.

    I don't take it lightly.

    I actually think religion is a healthy, natural thing, due to the simple fact that we don't know our origin. Maybe nobody ever does, maybe we just didn't evolve quickly enough to preserve it. Maybe we were created, and are not supposed to know. The point is that we all wonder, and we all make choices about those things, be it to embrace a diety, deny a deity, or just be content in the here and now, not knowing.

    Ever think about the possibilities? Most all the time I hear it's either created, or we evolved, or just happened. There is one other one, and it's that this whole thing is cyclical, and that we've always been here oscillating through our reality, only to cycle back and do it again and again. Some food for thought on what is a pretty sorry ass thread, don't you think?

    Maybe that's some interesting food for theological conversation the next time any of us find ourselves there, maybe I'm just writing shit too.

    The poker game is starting to get intense, so...

    Ever notice how anti-gay people are always highlighting how somebody elses life is offensive to them? I think this is profoundly selfish, and it just REEKS of control issues. Deep rooted ones too. Ever notice how important that word CHOICE is?

    I do.

    It's because CHOICE brings with it accountability, and the discriminators need that to justify their discrimination, and validate their fucked up shame based faith.

    (and yes, it's shame based, or we would not have this discussion... think about it)

    Well, if people are born that way, then it's a double whammy! No choice kind of takes accountability off the table, and that's no good. Also, what does that say about their diety then? Ugly, ugly stuff.

    So, here's the real noodler:

    It's not a crime to be a bigot. What is a crime is acting on it, discriminating against people for who they are, and that's where the control issues come into play.

    Somebody wants somebody else to conform to their vision of the world so they, themselves feel better. What a crock!

    Truth is, you feel as good as you think you do, and something is as offensive as you think it is. If you are feeling bad, or are offended, that's YOUR ISSUE, not the other persons, unless you are directly targeted somehow, and even then the same dynamics apply.

    Say somebody we hold in very low regard says, "fuck you!". How much weight does that really carry! NONE! They don't matter anyway, so it's actually better to laugh it off, and thank them for the entertainment, than feed on it, and surrender YOUR CONTROL over to them, validating their issues right along with yours.

    This is why religion is a personal thing, and is why I do not favor organized religion of any kind.

    An organization tends to cultivate this cycle and bring the worst control issues in all of us, front and center, starting all manner of conflict, from simple angry to bloody wars over what is essentially, "Yeah? Well, MY GOD will kick YOUR GODS ASS!".

    No different from a coupla little kids slinging, "Your momma" around, because everybody knows a real man doesn't take that kind of shit about his momma.

    Cheers everyone, and help somebody that needs it. We all might need it before it's over.

    Posted on December 13, 2009 - 11:16 PM #

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