U.S. states whose residents have more conservative religious beliefs on average tend to have higher rates of teenagers giving birth, a new study suggests.
Shocker!! Teen birth rates highest in most religious states(55 posts)
Posted on September 16, 2009 - 08:28 PM #
Do these sorts of threads with these sort of headlines serve a purpose other than to mock Christianity?
HEADLINE: WOMEN IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE 99% MORE APT TO BE VAGINALLY CIRCUMSISED BY THEIR LOCAL MULLAH. FILM AT 11!
Now, what is different from that headline then yours Vitagicalay?
The great thing is, if one reads the Bible, one will find that your headline was prophesied about 2,000 years ago. So, you are fulfilling prophecy! Nice!Posted on September 16, 2009 - 09:04 PM #
Oops, dang it, my bad, I had promised to stay on the Radio side. Now skulking back to my hole.Posted on September 16, 2009 - 09:05 PM #
Dodger, they only mock Christianity, if you associate that faith with Conservative. I think that says more about the 23 percenters than we think. All things being equal, that association really shouldn't be common. The fact that it is, directly speaks to the problem.
FREE ABSTINENCE EDUCATION HERE!
It works, until it doesn't.Posted on September 16, 2009 - 09:10 PM #
Missing (ok i know i promised to stay over there ->), the title and intent of this thread are what bother me. I think it is an outright attempt to "bring out" the Christians on this board. Rile 'em up.
I can probably bet that Vitalogy is just trying to stir the pot, which is ok, but why ALWAYS does Christianity get the dirty tennis shoe?
There are many other FINE religions that have done just as much wonderful damage to the world as any upstanding Christian has done, yet it will always be the Christian who is brought up.
Much like we don't hear "Oh for Buddah's sake" or "Allahdamn it", I think it actually speaks highly of God. HE MUST exist or folks wouldn't be cussing at him so much!
Religion is MAN made, and I will have nothing to do with it. Relationship, is God made and I dig that!Posted on September 16, 2009 - 09:21 PM #
I see it differently. Vitalogy is making people aware of the consequences associated with not calling these 23 percent clowns out.
The impact of that is all about convincing those of us, who are of good character, to push back those of us who are not. This is not a partisan thing, though it is a fact that the 23 percent Republican bloc is a big problem.
This is an American thing.
We don't raise our kids in an environment of ignorance and dogma, only to see them struggle in life, then bitch about the cost. We are smarter than that.
We don't discriminate against people for things they have no control over. Race, sex, age, etc...
We don't let big corporations rule us like serfs.
And it goes on and on.
Here's the set piece:
If anything is said, regarding these clowns, that actually hits home to the truth, they are going to cry "foul" and attempt to rope anyone and everyone into their cause. They will do this because they are flat out wrong. They are asses and everybody knows it.
The subtle thing is that not everybody will talk about it, because they get angry.
See how that works?
It's a clever game that's escalated to the point where we have actual serious issues here in the great old U.S.A. Those of us that see it, don't like it.
We've absolutely got the high ground on this too. Why?
Because we've done the work to come to grips with our issues (and everybody has issues), properly socialize and grant the same consideration we expect in like kind.
Those clowns didn't do that, and they are causing a lot of trouble because they are willing to work harder to validate and affirm their back asswards issues than they are to just work to deal with them.
The only way this is going to be remedied is to consistently call them out and educate people as to the damage they cause.
Since you brought up Christians, I used to be one. Was one, until I got tired of being told who to hate, got tired of the dogma, ignorance, hate and anger being shoved down my throat each day. Got the full Dobson and Gotthard treatment huge. And if you think that didn't absolutely chap my ass big, you are wrong! Those people are dangerous people. They almost got me sucked in, where today I might be one of those dangerous people.
So I walked. Took a hell of a long time to sort it out, but I got it sorted and I'm fine today. I'm lucky too. Grew up with some great kids, who didn't walk, who listened to that shit for 20 years, and now walk around part of the problem. Damn.
Now, that's not all Christians. What I've learned since is that we've got plenty of churches filled with great people just wanting to get after their worship, live it, love it, enjoy it and share it.
This is all good. These people are not the problem. That is the American way. Truth is, we need more of these people. Nothing wrong with them at all. Most of us need some faith, and when it's a fine faith, you get community, family and friends all in that context and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. More power to them.
The 23 percent assholes are pissing in their pool however. Those good Christians are getting associated with the most vile people that walk this earth. Those vile people are walking around telling other people that Pastor corn hole Bob says God hates fags. (or whatever hate target you want to consider there, it all works the same)
If there isn't push back from those of us of good character, faith or not, the 23 percent asses are going to continue to escalate this shit until we get really ugly laws.
Really ugly laws, you know the kind that most Conservatives fear the most, result from our general social apathy surrounding enforcement of norms. That's the social pressure we all experience that helps us to conform to be great people instead of assholes.
I don't like these kinds of laws. They restrict our speech and they lower our society to the lowest common denominator. I am liberal for this reason: I know my rights and responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is to get out there and set good norms, or suffer the laws for morons. No thanks. I'm quite sure Vitalogy sees it just the same way. He doesn't want the laws either, given people can just grow up a notch and get along. Let's do that. Fighting ignorance is front and center here. I wish ignorance were painful. I really do.
To make matters worse, Republicans have invited all these clowns into the party, validated their issues, elected a President that tried to further validate their issues, and the push back was most Americans thinking a Black guy with a Muslim sounding name seemed like a good idea.
Think hard about that. It's the truth.
So now these clowns are going bat shit nuts. The validation and reinforcement they saw for 8 years is gone and they are having withdrawl issues. They "want their country back".
I'm sure they do! It was damn nice to have all that crap considered the norm for so long. Bet they are pissed as all get out.
So here we are today. They are acting out, just like a little kid does when denied that candy at the grocery store! So they pound their drums, chant their chant, gather in groups and plot and scheme to find their way back and they don't care really how that gets done.
To them, it just has to get done, otherwise, they are just assholes again, like they were before, and it goes down hill from there.
There is a reason why Obama has seen a 400 fucking percent increase in death threats. These people are simply not ok with any of this, and they have no where else to go. Actually coming to acceptance on how shitty they really are isn't an option for most of them, so they express that as anger, hate, and other ugly things.
A bunch of them have taken the most popular religion, Christianity, and have perverted it to their own ends. They are thumping those bibles, listening to Limbaugh, Hannity and god knows who else willing to affirm their American way, under God, praise Jesus, Amen! These are the Christian Taliban. They are no different than the dominionist nut bags in the Muslim world. Here we are lucky enough to have core laws that prevent them from ruling like the clerics do there, or we would be just as violent and messed up as many of those nations are.
Go read their laws. Most of them say some book is the supreme law, where other laws follow. The clerics get to interpret the word of god and those poor souls have to live with that! Not here, not yet, and I know I'll go to the mat to say, not ever.
They should be pissed off. They got the spotlight, now it's gone. Tough titty. Should have never had it in the first place. Other Christians should be pissed off too, because they share the stigma these clowns brought on the whole affair.
Rather than point to somebody like Vitalogy, who is just doing some advocacy, they need to take a hard look at their own ranks and start bringing the hammer down on the clowns big. That way, they can clean up their faith so it's presentable and not associated with life time assholes with no future.
Not my problem, not Vitalogy's problem. Their problem.
Edit: Well that's not true. Really it's our problem. We are going to suffer big, if we don't get these clowns under some sort of control. Regularly and consistently highlighting the truth of the matter is a damn fine start on that task.Posted on September 16, 2009 - 10:00 PM #
My take on this is that Christian girls that do get pregnant carry the child to birth thus the stat...girls w/o Christian ideals abort...no stat.
Actually in hanging around teens/20 somethings at a youth dropin center, I'm see plenty/too many of out of wedlock births to single mothers here in Oregon...and when it's appropriate I thank them for having their baby and not terminating.Posted on September 16, 2009 - 11:05 PM #
Yeah, but then these stupid girls keep 'em. Babies raising babies. Did anyone watch "16 & Pregnant" on TV? I watched 10 minutes of the "reunion" show and had to turn it off, because I was so outraged and upset at these incredibly narcissistic(sp?), self-involved, and frankly, incredibly dumb kids.
Meanwhile, my sister continues to wait (over 1.5 years) for a healthy (no fetal drug or alcohol exposure) baby From Boys and Girls Aid...Maybe you, Broadway, could help her find a baby? They're ready to give up.
I've already told y'all about my friend who went back to school at U of Utah, and had to take a 100-level "Family Living " class. She was SHOCKED that most of the students in that UNIVERSITY class had NO real, or even basic knowledge of how babies are made. (She went to private Catholic HS in Ogden.)Posted on September 16, 2009 - 11:32 PM #
I think we all know why Vitalogy posted this message. Everything you need to know about his intentions are in the headlines. Par for this website I guess.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 04:42 AM #
Well, it certainly interested you enough to respond, didn't it?Posted on September 17, 2009 - 05:45 AM #
Broadway got it right; the young girls with morals and beliefs actually have their babies. The rest prefer to get the fetus' brains sucked out and be done with the problem. By this time tomorrow another 4,000 pregancies (and babies) will be terminated (killed.) The four of five of you liberal wack jobs that tend to dominate the discussions here should be very proud of that. How about getting signs like McDonalds had for their burger sales; "50,000,000 Babies Killed since 1973!"
I don't get it. Did you know that more black babies are killed in about two days through abortion than all the black lynchings in recorded American history? Where's the liberal outrage? The cries of "racist?" It's a good thing Obama was born a few years before Roe V Wade because the chances of his single white teenage mom giving birth to the baby of a black African would be like slim to none these days and the "savior" would not have been born.
To my Christian and conservative friends, I suggest the following strategy;
Let all the gays and lesbians that want to marry, marry.
Let anyone that wants and abortion have an abortion.
And in three generations all the liberals will be gone.
It'll work.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 06:25 AM #
So, I was wondering something, if a teen girl, say 16, has a baby and is still living at home, do the parents of the teen girl get to claim that baby as a dependentPosted on September 17, 2009 - 07:07 AM #
Damn right! In every southern state it's law.... LOL!Posted on September 17, 2009 - 08:48 AM #
Ahh, but you find the numbers skewed.
There are a ton of babies that are not even conceived because the smarter, less conservative states actually practice real sex ed, not "works until it doesn't" Abstinence only education.
BTW: If my own daughter were to get pregnant, we absolutely would help her care for the child and encourage her to not abort. The difference with pro-choice people is that we understand it's her choice. Nobody wants to live with an abortion, and there are lots of alternatives, all of which would be put on the table for consideration.
Additionally, we practice real sex ed so that we don't have to deal with this dilemma, and part of that education is wait until sex makes better sense. Again, the difference is we are not going to depend on the waiting happening. Sometimes teens don't do the right thing when their bodies are changing and raging. That's what the real sex ed and birth control are for.
Those lectures about "feeling proud" that imply some level of guilt are a waste of time. The law of the land is choice. The state of things is that we have many tools to avoid this problem. Only fools ignore those realities. The stats show the impact of that.
Dark: Yes, if the people in the home are not claimed by someone else, live there more than 70 percent of the time, and do not carry their weight financially. That is what a dependent is.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 08:50 AM #
“Broadway got it right; the young girls with morals and beliefs actually have their babies.”
It sounds as if MichaelW casts his pastoral net rather widely, perhaps counseling young girls on the art of parenthood? I’m sure MichaelW.’s fatherly advice goes a long way, even for a naive but moral young girl. Kudo’s to MichaelW. Because without him, perhaps the birthrate in this country would be slightly less.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 08:58 AM #
What MichaelW. and all the other idiot conservatives fail to recognize are the systemic problems that create the unwanted pregnancies issue. They seem to be too fucking clueless to connect the dots. It doesn’t take much of leap to understand that the problems are much deeper than these idiots seem to grasp. It’s galling that they rail against abortion but when it comes to deeper issues surrounding this problem, they bury their heads in their Bibles or Fred Phelps placards and rhetoric. Just a bunch of raving, religious, self righteous dipshits.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 09:35 AM #
" Broadway got it right; the young girls with morals and beliefs actually have their babies."
See now, this is the kind of hypocrisy that bothers some people. You think you get to claim some kind of high moral ground because they didn't have an abortion. When, at least for me, the moral ground does not lie there. I mean, sure, it's nice to have when you've already lost the other ones. But never even noting it makes me frustrated. You can't have it both ways. You can't say " These girls are moral." without ever mentioning the fact that they are having sex. See now, I pass judgement on nobody in any scenario here. But you do. So I take it out and apply it equally. You do not. That's a little bit of bullshit, to me.
So the stat we should be looking for would be " Pregnancy rates." Correct? Not " Birth Rates."
And if I could show you a stat of poeple who do have " morals " yet still had an abortion, you'd likely move the line. That's frustrating.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 09:46 AM #
Hey TALPDX.....What? do you have short mans complex? Feels good to put others down doesn't it? Maybe if you were to read the word, you would realize that you are the definition of a fool.....And if you have kids, I'm sure they would be proud of the language you choose! way to go!Posted on September 17, 2009 - 10:11 AM #
To what "word" are you refering?Posted on September 17, 2009 - 10:15 AM #
TALPDX-Couldn't help but noticed you did a quick edit on your post, wisely so. Commenting on who would care for and feed babies is weak. Good move on your part in editing that out. And not being okay with babies being killed makes me "pastoral?" Call me Pastor Michael then.
And what should we refer to those that are good with abortion? "Pro Choice?" Again, weak. I have to give it to your side though for successfully reframing the issue as a "women's rights" one instead of one about infanticide. A lot less messy.
Missing - yeah, sadly the law of the land is abortion, "choice" as you call it. Prohibition and slavery were once the "law of the land." Also, it's more than a little sad that "guilt" is apparantly not an issue.
Oh, and that statement about "we practice real sex ed." Golly gee, us old-timey God-fearing hill people just keep our legs close together. Ya mean we could be doin' more?Posted on September 17, 2009 - 10:15 AM #
Golly gee, us old-timey God-fearing hill people just keep our legs close together.
Apparently not.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:00 AM #
Looks like this thead got some bible thumpers fired up! Good! I know that the truth hurts sometimes, but a good dose of truth can be a good thing.
The point of this thread to to show the correlation between the following:
3. Teen births
Religious beliefs lead to ignorance about sex, which leads to teens getting pregnant. This is NOT due to the fact that less religious states have more abortions. The less religious states are more educated on sex and therefore avoid higher teen birth rates. Look at the list of states! It's due to the fact that teens in religious states have not been properly equiped with the knowledge to AVOID getting pregnant in the first place!
I'm not mocking christianity, I'm showing the hypocrisy of it. States that are the most religious should have the LOWEST teen birth rates, right? If only they lived up to their rhetoric, which sadly, they don't.
And what bothers me the most is that these states act like they have the high moral ground, when in fact, they are contributing to the downfall of our society. The facts show that when teens have babies, they face a lifetime of poverty and most end up needing government assistance. Then when those babies of babies get older, they repeat what the parent did. There's no pride what so ever in being a grandparent at age 40.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:04 AM #
No one has yet answered MY headline.
Muslim women forced by their RELIGIOUS leaders and husbands to be TORTURED by Vaginal circumcision.
So, is that religious hypocrisy too Vitalogy?
How come you guys NEVER hammer the other religions.
Once again, my case is carried for me.
Christianity IS being mocked, it's just cloaked in "politics".
It's Politically Correct, but not so for ANY other Religion, which ALL of them are as or MORE stupid in their man made rules and regulations. The hypocrisy is EVERYWHERE.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:28 AM #
>>showing the hypocrisy
welcome to the human race.
>>There's no pride what so ever in being a grandparent at age 40
I agree, that is a problem, babies having babies with gov't assistance,not the ideal conditions for raising children although we now have a president that was raised by a single mother with extended family support that did ok so these children can be productive citizens.
>>a good dose of truth can be a good thing
education is part of the process but sadly the education of our culture is winning.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:28 AM #
"No one has yet answered MY headline.
Muslim women forced by their RELIGIOUS leaders and husbands to be TORTURED by Vaginal circumcision.
So, is that religious hypocrisy too Vitalogy?"
If this was happening in the US, then yes, it would be an issue and we'd be talking about it. However, it doesn't and therefore isn't relavent. And for the record, I think all forms of religions are filled with hypocrisy, not just christianity.
"How come you guys NEVER hammer the other religions."
Because as people like you claim, we're a "christian nation" and it is the dominant belief system in the US.
"Once again, my case is carried for me."
No it isn't. The only thing your case has proven is that you play up the victim role quite well.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:34 AM #
"Let all the gays and lesbians that want to marry, marry.
Let anyone that wants and abortion have an abortion.
And in three generations all the liberals will be gone.
Clearly mathematics is not your strong suit.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:50 AM #
>>Meanwhile, my sister continues to wait
Mrs.M, believe it or not my heart goes out to your sister and her hearts desire to have a child, a most high calling in life! On my desktop is a picture of my new granddaughter and at 4 months they are so precious beyond expression. Here is help site that you might want to forward to her. It's seems to cover lots of the aspect of adoption including financial support.
Hope this helps...
http://howtoadopt.org/Posted on September 17, 2009 - 11:56 AM #
It's been said that the biggest thing going against Christianity is Christians. And as a Christian, I agree with that.
Hypocrites? You bet we've got them. Kids having sex? Yup. Pastors caught with their pants down? Yeah...and you guys love it when that happens! Run a bulletin on MSNBC! We give you guys stuff to scream about almost daily.
See, we don't claim to be perfect or righteous or morally superior. We're screw ups too! But on the whole, members of the faith will admit that.
This thread isn't going to change anybody's mind, although I was pretty close to crossing over to your side after being called a fucking idiot, bible thumper and the rest. You guys sure know how to sweet talk!
And rant all you want to, abortion is indefensible. It's not friggin' "pro-choice." It's "pro-death."Posted on September 17, 2009 - 12:04 PM #
Opinions are like assholes.
Everybody has one.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 12:06 PM #
Michael, what is it that you want?Posted on September 17, 2009 - 12:14 PM #
"See, we don't claim to be perfect or righteous or morally superior."
Not true. Please allow me to use your own words against you:
"Broadway got it right; the young girls with morals and beliefs actually have their babies. The rest prefer to get the fetus' brains sucked out and be done with the problem. By this time tomorrow another 4,000 pregancies (and babies) will be terminated (killed.) The four of five of you liberal wack jobs that tend to dominate the discussions here should be very proud of that. How about getting signs like McDonalds had for their burger sales; "50,000,000 Babies Killed since 1973!"
"Golly gee, us old-timey God-fearing hill people just keep our legs close together."Posted on September 17, 2009 - 12:44 PM #
“See, we don't claim to be perfect or righteous or morally superior”
"...we don’t claim to be perfect...” – Yes, I’ve seen the bumper stickers.
Anecdotally, I do have to disagree. I’ve been around enough born again Christians to know that the above statement doesn’t comport with the universal truth. I’ve seen plenty of righteous indignation and moralizing on the part of born again Christians who don‘t live it. Perhaps they should work more closely on redressing their own failings before being so quick to point out the shortcomings of others. Born again Christians seem particularly adept at casting the first stone.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 12:45 PM #
Born agains that make numerous false claims fall into two main categories:
You can be religious and informed. I've oft wondered why so many born agains build fervor on falsehoods.
They generally have little to no appreciation for modern society and the challenges it faces, preferring to live in a bubble of ignorance. Somehow along the way they adopted an attitude that the rest of the world must conform to the way they think and live. They lack diversity of thought, and do not wish to grant anyone the respect that having different opinions creates. Born agains should be excised from Christianity. They are sheep of the least respectable kind. In a forum of facts, they cower and run and ignore their own inability to think for themselves.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 01:42 PM #
Andy, this Christian acknowledges that there are different opinions and diversity of thought. But once in awhile I come out of the bubble of ignorance to disagree.
Have your opinions and beliefs. I don't need to tell you what an ignorant asshole you are, I can just say that I think you've got it wrong. Is that too disrespectful for you? Want me to say something like "burn in hell!?"
Excuse me, I need to call Dr. Dobson and find out what to say next.
You guys kill me! You know, us backward 23%ers. That is funny stuff!Posted on September 17, 2009 - 02:08 PM #
Asshole? Perhaps. Ignorant? Hardly. I clearly have a superior grasp of the reality of the planet than you do.
If anyone has their head up their ass it is those, like you it appears, that refuse to understand the cumulative knowledge base of world history and current affairs that renders the entire notion of "born again" Christianity's most sacred beliefs as heresy to its own church teachings.
Get a life ... a real one.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 02:13 PM #
>>I clearly have a superior grasp of the reality of the planet than you do.
Ahhhh...the smell of elitism...it stinks...civility please is in order?Posted on September 17, 2009 - 02:51 PM #
"I clearly have a superior grasp of the reality of the planet than you do."
"Get a life ... a real one."
Wow. I guess I've been told.
If you're serious, you really are something. Toxic actually. Maybe you should cut back on Olbermann, Air America and caffiene.
Would this be a good time to yell out "You lie?"Posted on September 17, 2009 - 03:26 PM #
So what surprise is all this about the correlation between teen pregnancy in Religiously conservative States vs. those that are not.
Planned Parenthood vs. Unplanned spontaneous unprotected naive sex with the only control being " taught abstinence " .
The " unnatural " vs the Natural.
Then the question becomes denial of the world as it exists now vs the way it existed in the past. ( ie: AIDS and/or the consequences of teen pregnancy in this day and time ) .
The ' unnatural " ie : protected sex , educated and worldly teaching of the mechanics of reproduction. AIDS awarness, prevention of contracting and STD by mechanical means.
vs...Natural ie : unprotected spontaneous sex. Let nature ( God ) take its course. Preach Abstinence as a focus to the solution for STD transmission .
Mankind meddling with the reproductive process vs . Mankind leaving the reproductive process to the " Natural " or in essence to " GOD "...
This is why we have Roe vs. Wade. And it will never be overturned IMO because we are a nation of reasonable choices. The outcome here is that we have two ways of thinking and doing .
I believe that both ways are right and can be justified in conjunction with each other.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 03:27 PM #
Speaking of toxic, nothing like a passive aggressive Christian. At least the heathens around here tend to be fairly consistent.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 03:56 PM #
How about getting signs like McDonalds had for their burger sales; "50,000,000 Babies Killed since 1973!".
How many abortions were there before Roe v. Wade? How many women died in back alleys getting abortions? The religious right is against all forms of abortion and against all form of birth control except abstinence.
I wonder how many of them know that George Washington was our first president!Posted on September 17, 2009 - 04:37 PM #
>>I believe that both ways are right
say "situation ethics"
>>How many women died in back alleys getting abortions?
a tiny tiny fraction compared to abortion on demand.
>>the heathens around here tend to be fairly consistent
no lie there and I think those on the right are too...
Interesting word to describe yourselves...heathensPosted on September 17, 2009 - 05:29 PM #
And heathens were once people who were labeled that and believed that the earth was round and NOT Flat...Posted on September 17, 2009 - 05:37 PM #
I am really surprised that people still fall for these bait topics. Vitalogy doesnt really want to solve any issue here, its just so he can bash on what ever is up his ass at the current moment.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 05:48 PM #
I'm surprised that you even care. People that don't care don't waste time posting.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 06:34 PM #
Then by that moronic logic you must really care about me.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 06:57 PM #
…its just so he can bash on what ever is up his ass at the current moment.
That’s like the pot calling the kettle black, Liberal Agenda.
Or you “protest too much” to put it Shakespearean terms.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 07:27 PM #
Well atleast you dont try to deny it...Posted on September 17, 2009 - 07:41 PM #
The only people concerned about my "23 percenter" characterization, are those people worried they might actually be a 23 percenter.
@kenniwickman -- absolutely! The goal is fewer abortions. Getting there involves advocacy, empowerment, education and alternatives. When we work together toward that goal, the numbers go down and outcomes go up.
It's that simple really.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 08:21 PM #
"I am really surprised that people still fall for these bait topics."
Yep. me too.
Carry on, ye religious zealots of no uteri.Posted on September 17, 2009 - 10:59 PM #
See, we don't claim to be perfect or righteous or morally superior.
Ummm right!Posted on September 18, 2009 - 05:56 PM #
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