Where's the outrage Libs? Obama promised 8 times in the attached video that the health care debate would be televised on C-Span for complete transparency. You can't believe a thing this guy says.
http://www.breitbart.tv/the-c-span-lie-did-obama-really-promise-televised-healthcare-negotiations/
I'm completely outraged.
I don't have cable. What am I missing?
C-SpanGate...wonder how progressives will explain this one off...
Don't think I'm missing anything.
Another contrived "controversy" from the Fear/Anger Radio clown posse.
http://www.breitbart.tv/the-c-span-lie-did-obama-really-promise-televised-healthcare-negotiations/
Striking...
Yeah, and the Republicans said that heathcare needed revising yet they did nothing even after President Obama tried for bipartianship. Sen. Demint talked about wanting heathcare to be Obama's "Wateerloo."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0709/Health_reform_foes_plan_Obamas_Waterloo.html
It is too bad that C-SPAN Radio is not carried locally in Oregon. Back in my college radio days, one of the scare stories that we used to foist on the station staff was that the student station at one Washington, DC area college had been turned over to C-SPAN by the school's board of trustees, who were the license holders.
That is a partially true story of WCSP 90.1 FM, which has been carrying C-SPAN radio since 1997. The real story is a little bit more complicated: the 90.1 FM was originally held by Georgetown University, under the callsign WGTB. The school's administration did, indeed, become upset that the station's programming was reflecting poorly on the school's image. In 1979, they sold the license for $1 to the University of the District of Columbia. The callsign became WDCU, and the programming changed to a Jazz format. In 1997, in the middle of a city-wide budget crisis, the university sold the station license to C-SPAN. Today, WCSP is using IBOC to multi-cast three audio feeds: the main C-SPAN Radio feed, the House of Representatives program, and Book TV.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-SPAN_Radio )
"Yeah, and the Republicans said that heathcare needed revising yet they did nothing even after President Obama tried for bipartianship."
Obama's idea of bipartisanship is for both sides to do what he wants. No thanks.
What a travesty...
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/74389-pelosi-responds-to-c-span-there-has-never-been-a-more-open-process
What planet is this woman on?
I think the process has been pretty open compared to all the secrecy that Bush/Cheney employed. Get a grip.
Well, I'm pissed about it.
There is plenty of outrage actually. This is corporate influence on the politics guys.
Only one way to deal with that, and that is to continue to build consensus among people that it's a problem, vote people in that will address it, and limit support for those that won't address it.
Make no mistake, supporting the GOP in any way does not make sense right now. If those asses would actually be posting up solutions, like you know, viable answers to tough questions, that would be worthy of some consideration, but all they are doing is causing problems, not contributing, and bitching about nothing getting done, hoping misguided anger and ignorance will lead to gains for them.
Nothing about the GOP has changed since Bush. The party will still fuck the nation up, and won't hesitate about it.
That means more and better Democrats. We cycle out some clowns with primary challenges, maybe cycle in some new blood through the same and attrition, all the while pushing on weak GOP seats to keep that mess from causing more trouble than we've already got.
The truth is Obama can only work with what he's given, and right now he's been given a corporate Congress, one party completely useless, his party split along corporate / progressive lines.
The guy doesn't have it easy, and doesn't own all the problems he faces.
All you guys pissed at Obama, or hoping he fails, or are scared he might screw it up have no credence at all. You do know that right?
If you actually gave a shit, you would have been right there with me and other Progressives looking to actually solve problems, not play partisan games.
Go back and read those archives. The discussions are there, the hypocrisy is there.
One good thing about Obama is he will gladly sign great legislation! Bush wouldn't, and the GOP leader ship wouldn't even put it on the table, hell wouldn't even hold hearings to consider it.
Dems, for all their flaws, have done both!
So we are on the better of the two paths. My motive in any thing political is to leave it better then I found it, and to preserve personal freedom, and to open up personal opportunity, diminishing oppression, facism and other core human rights violations.
Given those things, I don't see the GOP doing anything constructive, and until I do, they are useless, and worth keeping out of power as completely as possible.
There really isn't one party rule, as Progressives are the only bloc actually not being corporate, so the Dems really are two parties, with our interests as ordinary people once again getting back seat status to that of the wealthy and large corporations.
For all you guys out there trying to diminish Progressives, know right now, you've absolutely nothing. Nada, zip.
The movement has the high ground across the board, has had it, and will continue to have it. The position of Progressives throughout the Obama administration was to push for that progress and has not taken ownership of the corporate crap going on. It isn't doing that right now, continuing to push for cost control to check the coming mandate.
See anybody else doing that stuff? Hell no you don't, and that's why I'm aligned as I am. Consider doing the same.
On the GOP side, consider doing it there too. Progressive minded conservatives are clearly possible, and have existed in the past. Grow that, and I'll help, but don't come here bitching to validate all your issues by diminishing a good President struggling with a very corrupt, and corporate Democracy.
Broadway: You won't find a Progressive explaining that one off. We are pissed about it, pissed about being shut out of health care, though that one is not over yet as we have a large enough voting bloc in the house to be a problem, pissed about corporate DLC style leadership and pissed over many of Obama's picks.
That doesn't mean we are going to haul off and vote from some GOP, "thanks to the 23 percenters, I might win" clown. That's dumb, all things considered.
That doesn't mean we give up on Obama either.
What it does mean is that we've grown powerful, almost powerful enough to get it our way for a change. So it means organizing, getting more powerful, and working toward that end, knowing this President isn't going to veto what we do get done.
That's a great thing to know! The man himself said, "make me do it!".
Gladly, one day at a time.
Know I'm not an ideologe in this. Progressive minded people come from all walks of life, and employ all manner of ideology. They are all welcome, as our goals are the same, just the means by which we might achive them are the same. I welcome all those debates, and am hoping for a change of the guard over this next few years.
Hoping for that change in both parties too, though I fear that change might be the rise and dominance of 23 percenters for the GOP, not progressive minded conservatives.
I want it better, and I don't care what party gets it done. I only care about the people I'm working with, and that their goals are well aligned with mine, and that they are not corrupt.
Some of us here, and you know who you are, really need to think through your priorities and take the high ground on things. That doesn't mean changing parties, or anything like that. It does mean a commitment to taking the populist interests of ordinary people and putting them first and foremost for a change.
That is what is needed. People first, not corporations or the very wealthy. That's "Progressive" at the core, and I would gladly stand with anyone sharing that view.
It is not a partisan thing either. Notice how some of us are just not going down that road, other than for some morbid entertainment? (Rush is just too far gone not to resist, sorry!)
This is why: It's grown too fucking expensive to entertain the old games. Flat out. I could give two shits. I just want it better, and will stay committed to giving a fraction of my time toward that end, or it's just not gonna happen. Consider the same, and drop this petty "my guy is better than your guy" shit. Nobody needs it.
"One good thing about Obama is he will gladly sign great legislation!"
And, he'll sign shitty legislation also. Wait and see.
"I don't see the GOP doing anything constructive"
Except working hard to stop bad legislation.
Getting 30 million more Americans insured is a shitty deal? You got yours, fuck the rest, eh Deane?
"I've got mine, fuck the rest" is the official Republican party motto.
You can view the legislation through whatever prism you want to, even if it's a highly distorted picture you get.
You can then spew all the venom you want to, but it doesn't change the facts.
"I've got mine, fuck the rest" is the official Republican party motto.
Exactly!!!!!
And most of them will admit it too.
I think you'll find the Democrats pretty much the same way, except for the masses of Democrat have-nots, who simply just don't have theirs.
So Missing KSKD is the only leftie on here willing to admit the Dems came up with a shitty plan?
I'm surprised there is even one of you.
And BTW you got the motto wrong..
Its "I got mine... GET YOURS"
Not EFF YOU.
That puts you squarly in charge of your own situation rather than the DEMS motto...
I GOT MINE, GET IN LINE AT THE GOVERNMENT OFFICE AND GET YOURS TOO!
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=23537848
RadioBuggie, why do you keep posting that stupid video?
Deane,
We are getting hosed on health care. This is a fact, without question, indisputable.
The GOP refuses to do any health care reform, because they claim "it's all bad", if it comes from Democrats. This is petty, useless shit.
The GOP has offered NO meaningful plans for consideration, nor have they contributed to the realization of any currently on the table.
Translation: The GOP is just trying to stop legislation, whether or not it's good or bad. Only the suckers, who forget what the GOP did to us, zero in on "bad", thinking the GOP is doing something for them.
All the GOP wants is power, that's what they are working hard at doing.
Let's at least be clear about this.
If they get that power, without a core change in party platform, you won't get squat for it.
Let's be clear about that too.
Back to the issue...let's see it all on C-Span!
The only shitty thing about the legislation is that it doesn't go far enough.
And the reason it doesn't go far enough is because the PARTY OF NO, formerly known as the GOP, won't let it.
Democrats ran on a health care reform platform and were voted in overwhelmingly. The GOP was against it, and lost. Guess what the people want?
For Deane and Notalent, explain WHY it's bad legislation. I say it's a good start and something to build on. It's not perfect, but something is always better than nothing. Just ask someone who has nothing.
Besides, I got mine. And I won't really be affected one way or other. But, I don't mind others getting help to get theirs if needed. That's because I'm not a selfish conservative.
"The GOP has offered NO meaningful plans for consideration,"
I have repeatedly agreed with this.
"The GOP refuses to do any health care reform, because they claim "it's all bad", if it comes from Democrats."
Even you as a Democrat agree that most of it is.
"All the GOP wants is power, that's what they are working hard at doing."
You and I both know this is what Washington is all about, and that applies to both parties.
"If they get that power, without a core change in party platform, you won't get squat for it."
Agreed, except that party platforms don't mean squat. Nobody pays any attention to them.
This thread has drifted way off subject. It's about Obama being a liar, which I certainly believed he was from the beginning. I chose not to call him that until there was something definitive to hang it on, now there is.
I'm assuming that Trixter will not start referring to him as Liar Obama, just as he did Bush?
Vitalogy, exactly right. It's not perfect, at all, but it is a start. And a start despite the NO-P.
Notalent, "I got mine... GET YOURS", easy to say when you've got yours. It shows no empathy for others less fortunate. And don't give me the "I worked hard to get mine, they need to do the same" crap. I'm sick of selfishness. That is not what this country was built on. We are supposed to care about our fellow citizens, and help when needed. Your attitude has accelerated the downfall of our society. I blame the "Reagan revolution" (ugh).
Warner, we just disagree. This is the land of opportunity. He who snoozes, looses.
I'm not suggesting we don't need social safety nets for those who truly need them. But a structure where the government takes it all then divides it equally is not what this country is built on.
I notice that with this thread being about Obama being a liar, nobody has disagreed.
Republicans, of course, in their zeal to pretend to be upset about anything Obama does, forget that Obama's pledge for an open process was in reaction to what then-candidate Hillary Clinton had done in 1993-94 while in charge of that health care reform effort: she ran a completely closed process, so no one outside really knew what options were being considered. And Clinton at the time was widely criticized for her closed process. Candidate Obama was trying to use that as an advantage.
Only willfully ignorant Republicans could say with a straight face that this health care reform process - run by the Congress, not by the White House - hasn't put all the options in the open from the beginning. There has been endless debate in the media about public options, extensions of Medicare, insurance co-ops, etc - long before any bill was voted on.
And Republicans can hardly pretend to be upset about being shut out of negotiations at this late point - when they've done NOTHING but obstruct, delay, object to the effort to reform health care over the last year, when they were repeatedly given the opportunity to be part of the solution, not an obstacle to it. Unfortunately for Republicans, their tactic of trying block health care reform for political gain as they were able to in 1994 has backfired. And now the Democrats going into the 2010 elections will be able to boast about a health care bill - even if one that is far from great - not a failure to be used against the Democrats as in 1994.
Andrew, that's a nice rose colored prism you have. I'd hang onto it.
Warner,
Surely you know empathy is for pussy's.
WWJEW?
Who Would Jesus Empathize With?
When thousands of our troops die because of our president's lies, then I'll be concerned.
This is just more fake outrage from the right.
Well, that's perspective.
Deane, of course it's about power. But, how that power is acquired and what the product of it is varies significantly. The GOP is so totally self-serving right now, it's not even funny. It's actually morbid in how obvious it is.
Wanting power to achieve, say full civil rights for Gay people, is way different than preserving and adding to failed economic "trickle down" economic policy, or to start a war.
Progressives, for example, want power to restore some of the populist balance lost since Reagan. This is a perfectly fine reason to seek power, unless you are one of the top 2 percent, or a trans-national corporation looking to over exploit some part of the world, for profit in another part, at those peoples expense.
No need to lie about that part of things at all. I'll unabashedly own up to it, because I'll also NOT OWN a mandate to buy, with no cost control mega corporate give away too.
I'm all for insuring the people --all of the people, and will gladly pay. I'm not ok with that all being done for profit though. Not ok with it at all. Social safety net programs are part of the social contract and form part of the commons we all live, work and play in. These are non-profit things, where we all contribute so that we all may be better for it.
This legislation looks to break new ground by incorporating a profit motive in that, raising the cost of doing that, so that one entity, or a few entities can be a whole lot better off, leaving the rest of us just paying for no value add at all.
And there is NO value add having subsidies run through private insurers to fund health care for the poor. NONE.
That's my problem with it at the core. Paying = no problem. Would be nice to have a nice share of that burden distributed in progressive fashion, but I'll take it the way it is.
But what is essentially tax dollars, masked as a "mandatory purchase", going to some corporation that doesn't actually add any value is just largess and absolutely not ok at all.
"When thousands of our troops die because of our president's lies, then I'll be concerned."
Of course Vitalogy, we knew that before you posted it. At least you agree that Obama is a liar.
You know, I'm not sure we can flat out call it a lie.
What we have is an expectation set, that isn't being met. That much is 100 percent true.
What we don't know is why it's not being met, and that could equate to a lie, where the intent is to not meet that expectation for some self-serving purpose, or it could be other forces in play present issues that pose a problem that prevents the expectation from being met.
A lie, in this context, is like "fuck you, I'm not going to do it, and you are going to like it, even though I said I would do it". That's a lie.
Where the intent is to do it, but there are some valid issues to not doing it, that's just not easily characterized as a lie, if you want any credence for it.
Go ahead, cry "Liar!", without knowing jack shit, and nobody who matters is going to listen.
That is what the dynamic we have here looks like.
Missing, I don't need to go into details. The problems I have with the current bills are that they are totally structured for the benefit of those who contribute mightily to the politicians. The insurance companies, the trial lawyers, the pharmaceutical companies, it's all part of our coin operated Congress.
The difference between myself and the libs is that I recognize that we have nobody watching out for us in DC, nobody, and the libs are still in their euphoric stage of thinking now that the Dems control Washington, all will be well for them. I call Bullshit.
So then, moving on.
Why call Obama out on this?
Well, I would do it because I believe where we keep things secret, we also permit bad things to occur. The more open the doors are, the more the public can see, the better the product of the deliberations are.
Now I like Obama, think he's a legit President, has noble intentions, is smart, etc...
Calling out "Lie!" for me, would be to pressure him into being that great President I know he can be, and because of that, it's important to be sure "Lie!" is correct, or political harm is done, with no chance of a return, other than some self-serving gratification kind of thing, and that's just selfish and generally not cool, unless you are a 23 percenter.
Some people are calling out, "Lie!" because they don't believe Obama is a good President, and don't care to even try to see whether or not he could be a good President, and these people are just asses.
They are asses because the purpose of the civics is to enable our government to serve us well, promote the general welfare, common good, allow us to make better use of our freedom and all sorts of other primary school type stuff we all should know cold.
(some of us don't, but you get the idea)
Calling "Lie!" because it does harm, or because it promotes a specific ideology over another really doesn't leverage that high ground. It's counter productive in terms of civics, and should be discouraged overall, because, if we are to be self-governed, free people, we damn well ought to be better than that.
So, if that's you (and it is for some of us here), you really need to think that through, because I think I'm about to start calling people out on that shit. It's not ok at all.
We have far more pressing matters to resolve, and that crap doesn't help anybody in the end.
The motive behind the failure to meet set expectations is just as important as the motives of those calling "Lie!", without actually being able to meet the burden of "A lie".
Go ahead. Prove me wrong on that. Just demonstrate the chain of actions and statements that proves intent to disceive, and I'll gladly call that a "Lie" and the person that did it, "Liar".
But, if you can't do that, or what you know isn't really inclusive, then you also agree to STFU and own up to a false, self-serving characterization for your own ends, not some greater public service, or good. That's really low to just throw it out there, without some good, solid info to back it, or because you think it might help "your guy" because he's "somebody you like more" or some other equally shallow deal.
Obama flat out WON the election solid. Not disputed at all, unlike the last administration. That means, the agenda on the table right now; namely, a series of Democratic reforms are what the people wanted more than they wanted the other shit we see and hear about from the GOP non stop.
Make sure you are right about it, that's all. I don't think you can easily be right about it, so maybe it's just better not to go there right now, k?
That way, we are at least talking rationally and not fueling flames that are better off not burning.
Deane says: "Missing, I don't need to go into details."
Bullshit. YES. YOU. DO.
That is a big part of the problem right now. We have too many people, not doing their civics, and that failure has led to a lot of core, systemic problems that are biting us in the ass regularly, and that are proving difficult to fix because we've enough people, foolish enough to watch some boob, or douche on the tube, and trust that, instead of actually taking the time to understand what it is exactly we are trying to fix, and why that matters.
Deane also says: "I recognize that we have nobody watching out for us in DC" Bullshit here.
If you actually did give "the details", "the consideration" they deserve, you would find, "the Progressives" working on "the Legislation" to protect and insure that "your Interests" actually get, "The attention" they deserve, instead of us people getting "The Fucking" that is about to occur on "the hill".
Sheesh.
There is a significant number of people in Washington involved with Progressive caucus, who don't want to see the bill done without making sure it doesn't screw ordinary people. That's you Deane, and they are "In Washington" Deane, and looking out for your interests, whether or not you realize that.
Deane: "But a structure where the government takes it all then divides it equally is not what this country is built on."
I totally agree with you on that. Thank goodness that's not what is being proposed or enacted. So no need to worry about that.
And to address your "point" with this thread, I believe Obama was expressing his hope or desire that the process would be as open as possible. At that time he had no idea the extreme roadblocks that would be thrown up (literally) by the Republicans. No one did. Even cynical me.
Obama's idea of bipartisanship is for both sides to do what he wants. No thanks.
Again YOU forget a lot don't you. Was not DUHbya and Co the same way? Funny how YOU guys forget.... Is that ignorance?
Where was YOUR outrage when DUHbya lied about SOOOO many things... Huh? More ignorance?
Deane says: "Missing, I don't need to go into details."
Of course not! CONers don't like detials.. There are truth in details and that's NOT what CONers are about....
Deane: Andrew, that's a nice rose colored prism you have. I'd hang onto it.
When you can't refute the facts, resort to cute little zingers, I guess! Don't worry, Deane, I wouldn't have expected you to be able to respond anyway.
"At least you agree that Obama is a liar."
I never said that. I do not think Obama is a liar. Calling him a liar for every campaign promise that doesn't come to fruition is ridiculous.
"The problems I have with the current bills are that they are totally structured for the benefit of those who contribute mightily to the politicians. The insurance companies, the trial lawyers, the pharmaceutical companies, it's all part of our coin operated Congress."
And the reason why that structure exists is the GOP! I mean, c'mon, if the Senate had 70 Dems voting, do you not think we'd be getting a single payer system that would stick it to the insurance and drug companies?
Deane: Andrew, that's a nice rose colored prism you have. I'd hang onto it.
Deane had his for 8 years and still holds on to it when he misses DUHbya and Co....
Calling him a liar for every campaign promise that doesn't come to fruition is ridiculous.
Is DUHbya a liar for not keeping America safe while in office?
The part you miss is that Obama promised to fix all of this. Remember the word "change". Haven't heard it lately have you.
"Calling him a liar for every campaign promise that doesn't come to fruition is ridiculous."
Of course not, why would we ever want him to keep all of those campaign promises. By the way, there were some of us who had the brains to figure out before the election that he wouldn't keep them.
"And the reason why that structure exists is the GOP!"
Here it comes. The Dems write the bills in secret and it's the Republicans fault they're a piece of crap. Next, Trixter will be blaming it on Bush. Trixter, time to walk out on the stage with your usual post.
"Don't worry, Deane, I wouldn't have expected you to be able to respond anyway."
I always did have trouble identifying with fairy tales.
Next, Trixter will be blaming it on Bush. Trixter, time to walk out on the stage with your usual post.
LOL!!!!!!
And when your ready you will blame everything on Obama... The fact that Blue isn't orange... Republicans lost in 08'... PAINlin is an idiot... The economy... The mess that DUHbya left... the DICKster still running his mouth... I mean shit on a shingle... It's ALL Obama's fault!
Wasn't 9/11 Obama's fault too?
I always did have trouble identifying with fairy tales.
But yet you thought DUHbya was a good President...
Deane, I was wondering when someone would post up on this!
Crap, if it had been Booooosh that had made these promises, it would have been posted here within Pico seconds of C-Span bringing it up and the libs would have been calling for everything from having his toenails ripped out to a full on lynching.
I'm sure you know this, but Lord Obama can do no wrong according to his minions. They will bow to him even when he outright lies.
If he's only said it once, I could dismiss it. But he said it repeatedly. That makes him a liar.
Missing said: "What we have is an expectation set, that isn't being met."
Um, yeah. Semantics here. That’s like debating that a woman who sells her body isn't a whore, she's a prostitute. It’s the same freaking thing.
Liar. Period.
So did Bush lie when he said he would privatize Social Security and didn't?
Please show where he said he "would" do it.
I believe he suggested it, but never stated that he would definitely do it.
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