feedback.pdxradio.com » Politics and other things

Not just Greece

(57 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by missing_kskd
  • Latest reply from Alfredo_T

  1. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    There is widespread trouble in the EU.

    Romania (I have a good friend who immigrated here from there and can't wait to get his take this week)

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/06/romania-politics-idUSL5E8D612420120206

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/120123/romania-fires-foreign-minister-calling-protestors-inept-and-viol

    http://www.romania-insider.com/ft-calls-romanian-pms-resignation-and-social-protests-the-canary-in-the-mine-for-europe/48416/

    Greece

    http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/53270

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9076557/Greece-now-needs-145bn-bailout-to-avoid-collapse.html

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/greece-still-dicing-with-death-by-debt-default/story-e6frede3-1226268248284

    (That's 5 Austerity packages, with more on the way people, bailing out gamblers who played with our futures casino style)

    Portugal -- (A country I would consider moving to, for a lot of reasons)

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/11/portugal-protest-idUSL5E8DB0UP20120211

    Normally, this isn't on the list of things that happens there...

    Spain (Union busting going on big)

    http://www.expatica.com/es/news/spanish-news/spanish-government-meets-unions-ahead-of-mass-protest_207987.html

    Bulgaria -- (Anti ATCA)

    http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=136604

    http://www.geekosystem.com/europe-protests-acta/

    Slovakia (Corruption in privatization)

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6fc1858c-48cd-11e1-954a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1mGtobkum

    Russia (Anti Putin)

    http://www.eesti.ca/?op=article&articleid=35155

    US (Occupy is global discussion now, the difference being much less violence here, but the world is watching)

    http://www.the-99-declaration.org/

    http://www.northjersey.com/news/021012_Eviction_delayed_for_Occupy_Newark_protesters.html

    http://www.bluejersey.com/diary/20396/occupy-newark-one-of-the-few-remaining-encampments-faces-eviction

    (many more)

    IMHO, we are moving into some very interesting times. Austerity measures are pounding the EU, threatening the Euro, knocking out leaders, and destablizing that part of the world rapidly.

    Liberal economic ideas, polluted with neo-liberal ones (free market, trickle down basically) are failing, just as neo-conservative ones are (free market, supply siders), as both really prioritize big business and finance over the health of the nations they serve, leaving people on the hook for massive debt, and in danger of a financial coup the size of which we've not seen before.

    The door is opening for facists, with confidence in the traditional conservative / liberal factions waning rapidly. Could be the beginnings of another world war, if that happens. We've seen a lot of this movie before.

    What we do here in the US is going to matter. Right now, our economic situation is on a modest growth path, and that's notable all things considered. If we deny that, the implications to the rest of the world will resonate loudly. If we affirm that, we may see some avoidance of the worst.

    Economies are linked together on a scale not seen. The impacts can happen on a scale yet seen.

    Read through a few of those and ask yourself whether or not you really want to face Austerity up front, close and personal, because it is a definite reality if we do not continue to elect people who are aligned with ordinary people on economic issues. Yes, that means labor people.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:45 AM #
  2. Too many people on the government dole. Too many government workers. Too many people paid to do nothing. Too much government interference in the private sector. Too many overpaid union workers.

    That's why it's like that, and that's where we're headed too unless we reverse the direction we're going of a more and more coercive economy.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:50 AM #
  3. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    I heard the BBC world service reporter live in Athens when the disruption started this weekend, They were the only ones reporting that the general population were demonstrating peacefully and then the "anarchists" showed up and started the violence, randomly beating people and setting things on fire.

    NPR this weekend only reported that the "crowds" were violent in greece. No specifics on who the violent ones were.

    I think situations like this, while difficult in themselves, are being jacked by those with other motives. Similar to the Arab spring movement being jacked by fundamentalists.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:51 AM #
  4. duxrule

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 4,915

    "Too many people on the government dole. Too many government workers. Too many people paid to do nothing. Too much government interference in the private sector. Too many overpaid union workers.

    That's why it's like that, and that's where we're headed too unless we reverse the direction we're going of a more and more coercive economy."

    Thank you, Glenn Beck. How's Goldline doing this morning?

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:54 AM #
  5. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    WIsconsin is a useful example of what could and would happen here.

    Just imagine if there were no choice and the same thing was internationally imposed on the federal government!

    People here would be rioting in the streets too, and the anarchists would be fanning the flames, if not igniting them.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:57 AM #
  6. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    Yes, that is always the trouble. I have hope those other motives won't grow to be the purpose. Our own OWS has seen that threat and dealt fairly well so far.

    The EU and Asia are potentially slipping into recession. If that happens, and we've elected another neo-conservative? Welcome to a time where the Great Depression will be seen as prosperous.

    If not, we may see the Americas rise to a nice position! All over South America there is building and rapid technology adoption going on. I wish I spoke other languages, because it's a GREAT environment for what I do. Almost the 90's all over again.

    The core discussion here is distribution of wealth. That's the change in discussion OWS got done. It is a great discussion.

    Economic stability and prosperity doesn't just happen. It must be managed because our basic nature isn't stable. That's the lesson. How it's managed is up for discussion, as is how we remedy things, but it must be managed, not left to those who inflated things to the point of instability.

    I recommend jail for starters, tax reform as a strong second, and strong pro-labor policy as a third. There is no way the people are going to just lay down and let the IMF doom them to generations of poverty. It will come to war first. Doesn't have to happen that way, and maybe we can show the world that, as we have before.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:05 AM #
  7. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    BTW: I love the BBC World Service. UK is a very old nation, and it's globally minded. That maturity shows in the reporting, and makes our "shiny things" media look shallow and inept by comparison.

    @F&B: You know, I'm just ignoring that crap. You've got no support for it, and most people are aligned differently. Ideally, most of us will prevail and we can reach a place where it's much easier to laugh you off.

    Go Santorum!

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:07 AM #
  8. Uncle Mort

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 1,276

    Big corporate giveaway from the folks that created the mess, won't fix Greece, sez here:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/13/a-death-sentence-for-greece/

    MIke Whitney writes from the NW. Always been impressed with his insights.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:33 AM #
  9. "You know, I'm just ignoring that crap. You've got no support for it, and most people are aligned differently. Ideally, most of us will prevail and we can reach a place where it's much easier to laugh you off."

    Because you think there's something in it for you. You want the government to do you "a favor." That means the favor you get comes at the expense of some other guy, since the government can only take and redistribute. And you're fine with that. And you're fine with somehow being in the privileged elite which benefits by wealth being shifted from the most productive to the least productive.

    I've got plenty of support for it. Buy you've closed your mind to the idea that freedom is better than government take-overs, interference, and restrictions.

    Ignore me. But when you tell me you're ignoring me you're not ignoring me.

    Yes...go Santorum. I don't like the liberal world ruled by union thugs, government bureaucrats, and abortion enthusiasts. It's an ugly world, and we're seeing the fruits of if in these other countries.

    So I hope and pray someone like Santorum and other statesmen and stateswomen are elected who can prevent our country from burning too. But if it does, it's your fault and the fault of your buddies who turn a blind eye to the invisible victims of all the "free goodies" and special government deals.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:48 AM #
  10. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    That means the favor you get comes at the expense of some other guy, since the government can only take and redistribute.

    And Private companies can only take.....

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:52 AM #
  11. What a stupid thing to say, NoParty. Private companies provide a good or service in exchange for money. They don't knock on your door and stick a gun in your face and make you pay like the government does.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:55 AM #
  12. duxrule

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 4,915

    "They don't knock on your door and stick a gun in your face and make you pay like the government does."

    They sure would if they could. Look up the term "Robber Baron."

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:56 AM #
  13. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    Oh, you are right about that F&B. Since you've seen the layer beneath, it's appropriate to say the dismissal is implied and intended. Cheers!

    I do not believe it's possible to execute a dismissal without some positive statement, which means simply ignoring somebody is a passive thing. Correct! On an advocacy level, the positive statement has a higher net value than simple passive actions do. Now you know.

    There is a layer or two below that behind why I would say I'm ignoring your statements, perhaps we can discuss some day. I'll wait for you to highlight one of those, as to not spoil it out of hand.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 11:01 AM #
  14. To me, the problem is rather simple.

    Everyone wants a free lunch, and there is no such thing.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 11:29 AM #
  15. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    But that's not what happened Deane.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 11:36 AM #
  16. Fair and Balanced stated, “Too many people on the government dole. Too many government workers. Too many people paid to do nothing. Too much government interference in the private sector. Too many overpaid union workers”.

    I realize that’s your oversimplified explanation for the economic difficulties dogging the EU (that also completely ignores that draconian, conservative austerity measures that are in large part making the situation worse) rather than a specific statement regarding The United States.

    However, you then state, “That’s why it’s like that, and that’s where we’re headed unless we reverse the direction we’re going of a more and more coercive economy”.

    Here’s what I’m curious about: How do you reconcile that belief system with contrary factual information?

    Under President Obama there are fewer rather than more people on government payrolls. There is less government regulation under consideration for enaction under President Obama than his predecessor; coupled with a bipartisan effort to eliminate ineffective regulation. Union workers make up a minority of a minority within our workforce; and regardless it can be empirically proved had nothing what so ever to do with the recession that blew up in the final year of President Bush’s term. As for the “dole” as you euphemistically put it, I assume that’s a distorted reference to social services? If you’d like to take the far right position of advocating for the complete abolition of such services you’re certainly free to do so. But attempting to link an uptick in societal reliance during a time of economic turmoil in an attempt to prove an unrelated thesis is intellectually dishonest.

    And all of the preceding is against the backdrop of a steadily improving U.S. economy.

    Those are just the facts. Yet your conclusions are completely at odds with those facts. How do you make that work in your head?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:19 PM #
  17. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    Oh, to be a 20 something sociologist right now. Excellent material for a thesis! Could get paid to sort out authoritarianism and more generally the kinds of disconnects you just stated LG. Seriously.

    And yes, inquiring minds want to know. Seconded.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:30 PM #
  18. >>>"But that's not what happened Deane."<<<

    Are you sure? What did happen (in a couple of sentences)?

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:35 PM #
  19. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    They don't knock on your door and stick a gun in your face and make you pay like the government does.

    That's a stupid thing to say UF&UB.....

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:47 PM #
  20. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    Everyone wants a free lunch, and there is no such thing.

    Who is EVERYONE????

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:48 PM #
  21. Andy_brown

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 6,706

    "How do you reconcile that belief system with contrary factual information?"

    Facts? Hey, ignorance is bliss and F&B has no time nor penchant for real facts.

    "That's a stupid thing to say UF&UB....."

    What more do you expect from the paranoid right?

    Remember, F&B has limited formal education and you shouldn't pick on him for being unable to parse complex economic situations, especially in foreign lands where his one economics book doesn't cover.

    "Everyone wants a free lunch"

    Yeah, right. Deane is convinced that all of our problems are because of human laziness. It has nothing to do with how his party had driven our own economy into the ground.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 12:58 PM #
  22. Have it your way guys...it's all Bush's fault.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 01:55 PM #
  23. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    And Clinton's!!!

    I mean JHC that's who you CONers blame it on ALL the time. It use to be Carter for 20+ years now it's Clinton.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:00 PM #
  24. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    No. That's an out too.

    Deane, I don't have a two sentence summary. There are a lot of factors. Not sure how to package it down, but I'm thinking about it. There is the fact that we don't know all of it either.

    Sorting this requires we leave the US media bubble too. Consider doing that to pick up on some trends you may find quite interesting.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:02 PM #
  25. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    Deane????

    Who the hell is EVERYONE?

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:03 PM #
  26. Missing, while each country has it's own specific issues, in my mind they are all related. People want the government to take care of them and the government has no ability to do that except for a limited period of time.

    I have a simple mind and do not like to become confused with details. I prefer to look at the big picture from a distance, unemotionally involved.

    To me the art of working hard, working creatively, living reasonably and saving for the future are gone in most countries of the world. Take a look at Greece. The whole problem is a government supported populace living beyond their means. Now, when to has to be scaled back, they set fire in protest. Each country has it's own set of issues, but in my mind all from the same motivation.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:21 PM #
  27. Trixter, I'm not prone to playing your silly game today. Maybe tomorrow, or later.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:25 PM #
  28. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    I get that.

    Of course people want the government to take care of them! That is why we have governments, barring facists and theocratic kinds of arrangements.

    After the second world war England put the NHS out there for the citizens to leverage while they rebuilt England to be strong, fertile, etc...

    Governments exist to promote the general welfare, right? Ours does. Many EU nations operate the same way.

    Where is the check on abuses from massive capital, without governments?

    Your premise doesn't account for that, among many other things. You know how we are as people, so don't pull that garbage. It's lazy and you know it.

    Sure there are people looking for it easy, just as there are people looking to dominate because they can too.

    The balance of things isn't appropriate right now, and where do the people appeal? Government, or they just start burning things, or worse? You know the same history I do.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:27 PM #
  29. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    An interesting story from Spain was on NPR over the weekend, Where a lady was comparing the situation in Spain with that in the US.

    Her thoery was that Americans "generally" follow the rules while in Spain and other troubled countries Nobody follows the rules. Her example was unimployment insurance in Spain where the rate is like 23%. She indicated that Spaniards on unemployment game the systems and lie all the time by claiming benefits while working grey market jobs for cash.

    Same thing in Greece, rampant failure to pay taxes while collecting all they can from the state... From straight up benefits to jobs and pensions.

    Troubles come when the goose is done laying the golden egg and society can no longer pay what citizens have been taught to expect.

    Many see this as an "Expectation" culture. Expecting that we will get something from a source other than our own hard work. As if we just automatically deserve a share of someone elses weath we did not create.

    Notice how most of the troubled EU countries are the Socialist ones while the stable EU nations have Conservative to Moderate governments now?

    Germany, France, and the UK, are more moderate and even conservative than we are here in the US at this time. Not Neo Con by any means. Center Right type conservative. Something that no longer exists in our bi-polar national politik.

    The only abberation from this I see are socialist countries like Sweden, Norway, etc. While they are full on Social Welfare States, they have a culture of following the rule of law and no major history of corruption.

    Having a system that "pays out" significant portions of its cash and favors without asking questions kind of depends on having a self regulating, rule following culture. Or everyone will get screwed.

    I see the US as slowly become less of a rule following culture. A cascading effect is in progress... As the masses see wall street and mortgage brokers breaking the rules and getting rich, they themselves break the rules when their house goes underwater by walking away. these same people now cynical at the system will soon be breaking other rules of societel norm.

    This is also partially why I see the need to control illegal immigration. While I get the human aspect of it, these people are starting their lives in the US based on breaking the rules right off the bat. Next thing that happens, they lie about something else and get some benefits, a drivers license, someone elses social security number, voting, etc. While I have empathy for the situation these people are in, the rule breaking can not just be dismissed. It serves as an example to others, when they see it is happening all around them the natural tendency is to join in and get "mine too." The California state budget is as good an example of this as any. BTW, to thwart a thread jack into illegal immigration, I do support reforming the system with a guest worker type program.

    It's a slippery slope and we are heading down it eyes wide open.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:33 PM #
  30. Missing, I think you've bought into the thought that it's the rich guys who have created the problem. I will agree that we have an issue in this country with the rich getting richer and the poor getting kids as my Dad used to say some 60 years ago.

    In my mind, the government can't provide for everyone. All they can do is try to keep the playing field level and fair. Most of the time, they don't do that very well. The U.S. government has done an extremely poor job of that for many, many years now. I said openly back in the mid 1980's that this wasn't going to work.

    Our problems became amplified when labor moved off shore. Hardly a revelation. But why did it move off shore? Greed. Where is the greed? Anybody here got Mutual Funds, anybody own any stock, anybody got a 401K. Do you expect the fund managers to make it grow? Anybody shop at Wal-Mart for better prices. Anybody ignore the made in China labels.

    The Greeks want their bloated pensions and benefits, the EU folks want their 6 weeks of vacation a year and other benefits, everyone wants something handed to them.

    I don't want to turn this into a union thread, but the unions have had a major helping hand sending the labor off shore. The courts have done their share with their silly rulings.

    There's plenty of blame to go around, but wringing one's hand and saying it's the GOP's fault is just a little bit off base from reality. It's everyone's fault.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:37 PM #
  31. Notalent, that is an excellent post and certainly amplifies on my viewpoint. You just happen to be more articulate than I am.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:40 PM #
  32. "The Greeks want their bloated pensions and benefits, the EU folks want their 6 weeks of vacation a year and other benefits, everyone wants something handed to them."

    Bloated government payrolls, unrealistic and unsustainable pensions, unions and other crony capitalists getting special protection and government deals, all the "free" stuff--and then when the natural consequence of so much wealth being transferred to the non-productive and under-productive causes recessions and depressions, they look at the goose they keep squeezing to get those golden eggs and blame the goose.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 02:47 PM #
  33. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    I do not believe "the rich" caused it. I do believe the problems are systemic, resulting from policy changes away from a managed capitalism.

    As for "handed to them", pensions and such, that all has to do with how we value things.

    An example would be the expectation of six weeks of vacation being out of line, just as is the expectation that one can pay a laborer less than it costs the laborer to do the labor.

    In any case, labor was exchanged for value, so it's not "handed to them." What is happening is the value of things, and the priorities are not well aligned with what is needed for a stable, prosperous time.

    A big part of "systemic" means we need to start establishing some basic priorities and expectations.

    Do People or dollars take priority? That's a core discussion right there. Many such questions need basic resolutions to guide us to solutions that can better balance things. When we did that last time, we got the middle class.

    We need to have that discussion again, and this time, it's a more global one, due to how we've interconnected things.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 03:15 PM #
  34. Most of these problems can be traced to the large investment banks in the U.S. like Goldman Sachs. Greece had a relatively low debt, however it prevented them from entering into the EU. So Goldman Sachs made it appear they were debt free when actually weren't so they were allowed to enter. Economic terrorists - they kill as sure as real terrorists do.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 03:18 PM #
  35. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    Pete, I agree, those evil bastards at Goldman Sachs will take us all down!

    This one is for you, especially...

    http://my.firedoglake.com/fflambeau/2010/04/27/a-list-of-goldman-sachs-people-in-the-obama-government-names-attached-to-the-giant-squids-tentacles/

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 03:23 PM #
  36. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    That's a big frustration for progressives, who see most of the Democratic party as very similar to Republicans on basic economic issues.

    IMHO, part of the problem is the economic ideals Goldman Sachs stand for are very pervasive.

    Personally, I would love to see a far more diverse economic influence, so that we might get at some of those basic questions with different answers.

    Good link Notalent.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 03:28 PM #
  37. And no answer. Here's my shocked face. :0

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 03:33 PM #
  38. missing_kskd

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 14,924

    Amazing isn't it?

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 04:43 PM #
  39. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    Trixter, I'm not prone to playing your silly game today. Maybe tomorrow, or later.

    It's a fucking question ass! You said EVERYONE!

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 05:53 PM #
  40. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    You just happen to be more articulate than I am.

    NO SHIT!

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 05:53 PM #
  41. skeptical

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 6,010

    How about this -- low tax rates for the rich, but they can only keep that same percentage amount in savings -- everything else MUST BE SPENT in the Unites States before the next April 15th or else ALL of it goes to the government.

    You want a 10% tax rate, fine, but you can only put 10% of the remainder in savings -- everything else must be spent.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 07:36 PM #
  42. How about if it can only be spent on union made goods? There's no sense in stopping half way.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 07:43 PM #
  43. "I have a simple mind and do not like to become confused with details".

    -Deane

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 07:51 PM #
  44. skeptical

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 6,010

    How about if it can only be spent on union made goods? There's no sense in stopping half way.

    I'm glad you opened that door. I didn't want to be a troll and bring up unions in every thread.

    But yeah, that'll be most excellent. The union guys will then have to start spending their savings too.

    This is a much better plan than the trickle down one. Let's call it the waterfall plan.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 08:22 PM #
  45. Vitalogy

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 7,230

    "Bloated government payrolls, unrealistic and unsustainable pensions, unions and other crony capitalists getting special protection and government deals, all the "free" stuff--and then when the natural consequence of so much wealth being transferred to the non-productive and under-productive causes recessions and depressions"

    Wrong, ace.

    Government spending does not cause recessions or depressions. Rather the truth is just the opposite. Government spending brings us out of recessions/depressions as evidenced by history several different times.

    The quickest way to a recession is to cut government spending. The problem with Greece is that they are unwilling to tax the rich, therefore they must cut the jobs and benefits of those barely making ends meet. I don't blame them for being pissed.

    "Germany, France, and the UK, are more moderate and even conservative than we are here in the US at this time."

    Dead wrong. The most coservative EU member is still far left of the US.

    I will agree with you on the issue of following the rules though. This is why I favor regulation that makes sense to make sure things are fair, rather than the "free market" so many people claim would work better, where those that don't follow the rules profit at the expense of those that do.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 08:35 PM #
  46. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    Yes, Even the rich have to follow the rules, Even if is not the most profitable thing they could do.

    However you are wrong about the fact that Greece was unwilling to tax the rich. They did tax the rich, but the rich refused to pay. Even ordinary people refused to pay and many others scammed the generous social welfare system while working for cash under the table, or did gratuitous civil service jobs where no actual work was required but a fabulous pension was their reward. Usually due to knowing or being related to someone in a high position.

    The quickest way to a recession is to continue generous government spending without the revenue to support it.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 09:31 PM #
  47. "The quickest way to a recession is to continue generous government spending without the revenue to support it."

    Bullshit, the quickest way to depression is austerity, you can ask President Herbert Hoover about that. Spending by the government puts money in the pockets of people who turn around and spend it.

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 10:05 PM #
  48. NoParty

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 11,870

    "I have a simple mind and do not like to become confused with details".

    -Deane

    Facts should be added into this....

    Posted on February 13, 2012 - 11:24 PM #
  49. Notalent

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 2,412

    So tell us all, Pete, How does one continue spending when the spending is funded by loans that are no longer available?

    Spending only works until you are broke.

    Posted on February 14, 2012 - 09:33 AM #
  50. Roosevelt spent and created bigger government where Hoover did the opposite...but this strategy ultimately was failing again by 1936/37. It wasnt until 39 and beyond that the 'war economy ' kicked in and saved Roosevelts fiscal and governmental policies.

    At some point we have to quit spending massive amounts of money we dont have and will not likely ever see any time soon with out a 'write down'. Which is what is going on right now with Greece. Monies are being witheld by the EU until each and every legislator in Greece signs off on the condtions of the loan...which is creating most of the violence and consternation in that country now.

    Welcome to the future...Obama and everyone in his administration including all the Republicans KNOW right now that the US is headed for a trainwreck..its a matter of time...we cant pay it back , we cant afford it, we will default at some point...we all know it but dont want to do what is required to avoid it.

    The political will is not there. We are not there yet...and if we dont just deal with it soon , it will be too late. Over the edge we go.

    Posted on February 14, 2012 - 10:43 AM #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.