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Native Americans Reveal Secrets of Bigfoot - 1924

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  • Started 2 years ago by Craig_Adams
  • Latest reply from Craig_Adams

  1. I've discovered some very interesting articles written in "The Oregonian" 88 years ago on the subject of Bigfoot. Most articles of the time made light of Sasquatch sightings. The articles below reveal information about the creature we're just beginning to understand. You'll find in reading, be wary of these huge beasts. They can kill you.

    These articles were inspired days after the famous account of a group of prospectors that were attacked by Sasquatches near Mount St. Helens. One of the miners had shot and killed one of the "Mountain Devils." This happened July 10, 1924 at their claim on the Muddy River, about 8 miles Southeast of Spirit Lake. The account was the beginning of what would become Bigfoot lore. Who better to enlighten us about these elusive creatures than Native Americans who interacted with them, passing down their stories.
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    Front Page of "The Oregonian" On July 16, 1924

    BIG HAIRY INDIANS BACK OF APE TALE - MOUNTAIN DEVILS' MYSTERY GROWS DEEPER - GIANTS SAID TO ROAM HILLS - SHAGGY CREATURES KILL GAME BY HYPNOTISM, IT IS SAID - VENTRILOQUISM IS USED - REDMEN'S EDITOR AT HOQUIAM GIVES THEORY OF REPORTED ATTACK AT SPIRIT LAKE

    BY JORG TOTSGI, CLALLAM TRIBE, Editor of the Real American, Hoquiam Washington.

    HOQUIAM, Wash., July 15. --- (Special.) --- The big apes reported to have bombarded a shack of prospectors at Mount St. Helens, are recognized by Northwestern Indians as none other than the Seeahtik Tribe of Indians. Seeahtik is a Clallam pronunciation. All other tribes of the Northwest pronounce it Seeahtkeh. Northwestern Indians have long kept the history of the Seeahtik Tribe a secret, because the tribe is the skeleton in the Northwestern Indians' closet. Another reason the Indians have never divulged the existence of this tribe is that the Northwestern Indians know the white man would not believe the stories regarding the Seeahtik Tribe.

    These facts are corroborated by Henry Napoleon, Clallam Tribe; L.J. James, Lummi Tribe; George Hyasman, Quinault Tribe.

    GAME KILLED BY HYPNOTISM
    Every Indian, especially of the Puget Sound Tribes, is familiar with the history of these strange giant Indians, as they are sometimes referred to by local Indians. Shaker Indians of Northwestern Oregon, who attended the Shakers' convention on the Skokomish Reservation on Hood Canal last year, related to the writer their experience with the Seeahtik Indians.

    Oregon and Washington Indians agree that the Seeahtik Indians are not less than seven feet tall and some have been seen that were fully eight feet in height. They have hairy bodies like a bear. This is to protect them from the cold as they live entirely in the mountains. They kill their game entirely by hypnotism. They have great supernatural powers. They also have the gift of ventriloquism, and have deceived many ordinary Indians by throwing their voices.

    SEVERAL LANGUAGES USED
    These Indians talk, beside the bear language of the Clallam Tribe and the bird language. The writer was told by Oregon Indians during his research work among them last year that the Seeahtik Tribe can imitate any bird of the Northwest, especially the bluejay, and that they have a very keen sense of smell. Oregon Indians at times have been greatly humiliated by the Seeahtiks' vulgar sense of humor.

    The Seeahtiks play practical jokes upon them and steal their Indian Women. Sometimes an Indian Woman comes back. More often she does not, and it is even said by some Northwestern Indians that they have a strain of the Seeahtik blood in them. Oregon and Washington Indians differ in regard to the Seeahtiks' home. The Oregon Indians assert they made their home in or near Mount Rainier, while the Puget Sound Indians say they live in the heart of the wilderness at Vancouver Island, B.C.

    "BIG BEAR" SPEAKS
    Henry Napoleon of the Clallam Tribe came upon one of the members of the Seeahtik Tribe while out hunting on Vancouver Island. He related this story to the writer:

    "I had been visting relatives near Duncan, B.C. and while there I had been told many stories of the Seeahtiks by the Cowichan Tribe of British Columbia and warned by them not to go too far into the wilderness. However, in following a buck I had wounded I went in farther than I expected. It was at twilight when I came across an animal that I believed to be a big bear but as I aimed at him with my gun he looked and spoke to me in my own tongue. He was about seven feet tall and his body was very hairy. As he invited me to sit down, he told me that I had come upon him unaware and that his mind had been projected to distant relatives of his, otherwise he (Mr. Napolean) would never have been seen."

    STRANGE MEDICINE USED
    "After we talked for some time he invited me to the Seeahtik's home. Though it was now dark, yet the giant Indian followed the trail very easily; then we began an underground trail and after hours of travel we came to a large cave, which he said was the home of his people, and that they lived during the winter in the different caves on Vancouver Island.

    He also told me that the reason they were not seen very much was because they had a strange medicine that they rubbed over their bodies so that it made them invisible and that combined with their wha-ktee-nee-sing or hypnotic powers, made them very strong Tamanaweis men. They also told me that they could talk almost any Indian language of the Northwest. The next day they led me out and just at twilight I came out of the underground trail and they accompanied me to within a mile of the Indian village I was staying at."

    TRIBE HELD HARMLESS
    The Seeahtik Tribe is harmless if left alone. However, if one of their members is injured or killed they generally take 12 lives for the one. This the Indians of the Northwest have learned, and even though the Seeahtik Tribe steal all their dried meat or salmon, or even steal their women, the Puget Sound Indians will not try to retaliate, for once the Clallam Tribe in righteous indignation captured a young man of the Seeahtik Tribe at Seabeck Wash., and took him across the Hood Canal to Brinnon, where other Clallam Indians were camped.

    Kwainchtun, the writer's own grandfather, kept telling the Clallams to be careful of the Seeahtik's supernatural powers, but he was only laughed at. It was later told by Kwainchtun, that while they were still 20 yards from the shore the young Seeahtik made a mighty leap and immediately made for the mountains.

    CLALLAMS ARE KILLED
    Kwainchtun warned his people that they should move but again he was laughed at. That very night the Seeahtik Tribe came down and killed every Clallam there but Kwainchtun, who had moved his family across the canal. The Oregon and Washington Indians of the present believed that the Seeahtik Tribe was just about extinct, as it was 15 years ago since their tracks were last seen and recognized at Brinnon, Wash., where the giant Indians came every Fall to fish for salmon in the Brinnon River.

    However, Fred Pope of the Quinault Tribe and George Hyasman were fishing for steelheads about 15 miles up the Quinault River, one day in September four years ago, when they were visited by Seeahtik Indians. Mr. Hyasman said he heard and recognized their peculiar whistling before they approached us and in the morning we found that they had stolen all the steelheads we had caught. Therefore, the Indians of the Northwest after reading an account of the "big apes" attacking a prospector's shack immediately recognized the Indians referred to in The Oregonian as the Seeahtiks, or giant Indians.

    Some Indians of the Northwest say that during the process of evolution, when the Indian was changing from animal to man that the Seeahilk did not absorb the "Tamanaweis" or soul power, and thus he became an anomaly in the Indian's process of evolution.

    Their sence of humor is vulgar and obscene as many ordinary Indians have told the writer, therefore, the Northwestern Indian is ashamed of this tribe, which is generally referred to as the skeleton in the Northwestern Indian's closet.
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    Follow up article revealing even more on what Native Americans know about Bigfoot.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Front Page of "The Oregonian" On July 17, 1924

    APE HUNT TO FAIL, INDIANS PREDICT - SEEAHTIKS SAID TO ROAM AT SPIRIT LAKE - STRANGE EVENTS RELATED - BIG BREASTED GIANTS TAKE REVENGE ON TRIBESMEN - CEDAR IS LEFT ON DEAD - SHAGGY MONSTERS REPUTED TO BE STRONG ENOUGH TO PULL OFF HEADS OF HUMANS

    BY JORG TOTSGI, CLALLAM TRIBE, Editor of the Real American.

    HOQUIAM, Wash., July 16. --- (Special.) --- That the apeman hunt now being conducted by Kelso people will meet with failure is the foregone conclusion of Indians of the Northwest who know the habits and supernatural powers of these Seeahtik Indians or the lower class of Seeahtiks, which the Clallams call the Tyapish or Nung-Nung, the name given them by the lower Chehalis Tribe.

    Local Indians assert that the Seeahtik Tribesmen generally make their appearance around Mount St. Helens the latter part of July and as a general rule do not remain there very long. Then they move North to the Olympic Range, where they do their Fall fishing in the upper parts of the Quinault and the Brinnon River. Then about the first of November or with the first breath of Winter they continue their Northward journey to Vancouver Island, where they remain during the entire Winter.

    SPIRIT LAKE WEIRD
    Old Indians of the upper Chehalis, the Cowlitz and the Quinault assert that Spirit Lake is a weird lake. Many strange things have happened there and many weird tales and legends abound in the region of the Spirit Lake country. It is said of the old Indians that only the strongest among them sought their Tamanaweis, or soul power, in the lake. There were some who came back and became strong Medicine Men among their tribe, but more often they were never heard from again.

    Allen Chenois, a local Indian, told the following story to the writer regarding the Tyapish Indians:

    "My uncle, old man Chenois, told me once that he found a party of other Indians while out hunting some years ago and came upon a band of the Tyapish Indians during their evening meal in Baker's Slough on the Willapa Bay. The giant Tyapish seemed to be talking to the others in queer animal sounds, which my uncle could not make out. The Tyapish licked his greasy paws, then wiped them on his naked sides. Crouched around him on their hams [thighs] were several others."

    TRIBESMEN DEEP-CHESTED
    "In appearance they were much the same. They were tall, narrow-hipped and had crooked legs, and at the same time were deep-chested with heavy arms and enormous hands. They were covered with thick hair and had large breasts. Their heads were matted with uncut hair and black glittering eyes like the eyes of birds. Their jaws were massive. At one side of them partly devoured lay the carcass of a deer. It was a clear starlight night and we could make them out very plainly, but they were so ferocious looking my uncle said that we did not stay very long."

    Allen Chenols added that the Tyapish had not killed any Indians of the past generation that he knows of, but he had heard that former Chehalis Indians had been murdered at times by these giant Indians. They were so strong it is known they could pull a grown man's head right off.

    L. Peter James of the Lummi Tribe related last year to the writer that the Seeahtik always leaves a tiny branch of the cedar tree at places they have visited or upon people whom they have killed or played a practical joke on. The Duwamish Tribe at one time related that some of their women had been stolen. The Seeahtik in a rage killed 12 of the Duwamish Tribe by ripping them in two. Mr. James' mother, who is still alive was a witness to the tragedy. She said:

    "They took our young men like toys, turning them upside down and ripping them in two like a piece of calico. Never again did the Duwamish Tribe seek revenge when their women and babies were stolen by these Snayihum or Indians of the night and brothers to the Noseless one."

    "It was a custom of theirs to steal dried salmon from the Lummi Indians," said Mr. James. "The Seeahtiks are tall, hairy creatures and are great travelers."

    Tradition of the Pacific Coast Indians bears out the fact that they were animals at one time, and during the process of evolution when they were changing from the animal to man the Seeahtiks did not absorb the Tamanaweis or soul power, and thus they became an anomaly in the process of evolution.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    This is a very clear picture of the back of a Bigfoot, taken by a trail cam February 23, 2012. A trail cam, is a camera that can take pictures automatically when set off by motion and was triggered at night.
    http://www.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/American-bigfoot-society%27s-bigfootpicture.jpg

    Posted on May 5, 2012 - 05:54 AM #
  2. Nice story but that picture looks a lot like my ex husband. Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Posted on May 5, 2012 - 06:21 AM #
  3. NoParty

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    Posts: 11,870

    NO face pics?

    DAMN!

    Posted on May 5, 2012 - 09:54 AM #
  4. Here's the famous story that started it all....
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    Front Page of "The Oregonian" On July 13, 1924

    FIGHT WITH BIG APES REPORTED BY MINERS - FABLED BEASTS ARE SAID TO HAVE BOMBARDED CABIN - ONE OF ANIMALS, SAID TO APPEAR LIKE HUGE GORILLA, IS KILLED BY PARTY

    KELSO, Wash., July 12. --- (Special.) --- The strangest story to come from the Cascade Mountains was brought to Kelso today by Marion Smith, his son Roy Smith, Fred Beck, Gabe Lefever and John Peterson, who encountered the fabled "Mountain Devils" or mountain gorillas of Mount St. Helens this week, shooting one of them and being attacked throughout the night by rock bombardments of the beasts.

    The men had been prospecting a claim on the Muddy, a branch of the Lewis River about eight miles from Spirit Lake, 46 miles from Castle Rock. They declared that they saw four of the huge animals, which were about 7 feet tall, weighed about 400 pounds and walked erect. Smith and his companions declared that they had seen the tracks of the animals several times in the last six years and Indians have told of the "Mountain Devils" for 60 years, but none of the animals ever has been seen before.

    Smith met with one of the animals and fired at it with a revolver, he said. Thursday [7-10-24] Fred Beck, it is said, shot one, the body falling over a precipice. That night the animals bombarded the cabin where the men were sleeping with showers of rocks, many of them large ones, knocking chunks out of the log cabin, according to the prospectors. Many of the rocks fell through a hole in the roof, and two of the rocks struck Beck, one of them rendering him unconscious for nearly two hours.

    The animals were said to have the appearance of huge gorillas. They are covered with long, black hair. Their ears are about four inches long and stick straight up. They have four toes, short and stubby. The tracks are 13 to 14 inches long. These tracks have been seen by Forest Rangers and prospectors for years.

    The prospectors built a new cabin this year and it is believed it is close to a cave thought to be occupied by the animals. Mr. Smith believes he knows the location of the cave.

    Posted on May 5, 2012 - 07:23 PM #
  5. Sorry, if this is GROSS for some.

    I have a question: In the second article it says this:

    "They took our young men like toys, turning them upside down and ripping them in two like a piece of calico."

    Thought about this. If I was a burly 7 to 8 foot tall guy, it would be easy to turn a person upside down by the ancles. The head would not be touching the ground and this would be a fast way to rip open flesh at the crotch. [There has been evidence to suggest the creatures, at times, eat humans.] This manner of ripping open a body, upside down, would also indicate this was most likely standard for killing humans for meat.

    My question: Would a human body literally rip apart, given the dynamics above? I'm thinking one leg would rip off and that would be it. Is it possible for a human body to be ripped apart all the way to the neck?

    Posted on May 6, 2012 - 08:20 AM #
  6. This from "The Oregonian" front page on Monday January 21, 2013:

    Bigfoot Or Animals? Strange Sounds Coming From Swamp On Umatilla Indian Reservation (listen)
    http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/01/strange_sounds_coming_from_a_s.html

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 02:31 AM #
  7. skeptical

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    It's a prankster now showing off the news coverage he got.

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 03:31 AM #
  8. edselehr

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    Craig, you're a great guy but seem particularly susceptible to hoaxes. Here's the explanation of the "trail cam" photo of Bigfoot you reference above.

    http://rwridley.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/breaking-news-on-the-melissa-hovey-bigfoot-picture/

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 11:44 AM #
  9. Correct. Pictures are refutable of anything today.

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 10:02 PM #
  10. Vitalogy

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    Posts: 7,227

    Bigfoot is made up, just like all the other things that people claim to be true but are not (god, bible, religion in general, ESP, palm reading, tarot cards, UFO's, alien abductions, etc.)

    Does anyone really think that a bigfoot would exist without proof? If so, you're gullible enough to fall for just about any scam out there.

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 10:04 PM #
  11. duxrule

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    Posts: 4,912

    New species are being discovered all of the time, including large species. Despite what we think of North America being "populated," there are vast areas that never see the touch of man for years on end. Think it's not true? Drive up to Saddle Mountain near Astoria some time and look out across those forests. It's easy to hide in those areas. That being said, it's highly unlikely that something the size of a Sasquatch wouldn't have been definitively found, especially given the amount of study involved.

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 10:09 PM #
  12. Notalent

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    That would be why they have supernatural powers of course!

    Posted on January 22, 2013 - 10:41 PM #
  13. of course..they dissapear and appear sponanteously etc etc..convenient..

    Posted on January 23, 2013 - 01:09 PM #
  14. Alfredo_T

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    Posts: 5,303

    I will start off by saying that I think the probability of the existence of large apelike creatures today in North America is on the order of 1E-12. If such creatures had existed at any time, scientists would have found a skeleton or parts thereof by now.

    I am wondering about the macabre question, posed earlier in this thread, how would a human body rip if the legs were torn apart? How much force would it take to do the job? I had thought of the medieval punishment of drawing and quartering, but it turns out that that punishment did not involve tearing a person's legs off. (My 6th grade teacher described the punishment as tying a person to four horses, allowing each to rip a limb from the torso. Wikipedia states that horses were used to drag the person to the execution site, but that the limbs were cut off, not torn off.)

    Posted on January 23, 2013 - 01:50 PM #
  15. D.N.A. PROVES EXISTENCE OF BIGFOOT - Released February 13, 2013

    "highly-purified, single-source DNA with no contamination for each sample. The three Sasquatch genomes align well with one-another and show substantial homology to primate sequences."

    Read more about this from THE SEATTLE P.I.:

    Researchers Sequence Sasquatch Genome, Novel Hominins Extant in North America
    http://www.seattlepi.com/business/press-releases/article/Researchers-Sequence-Sasquatch-Genome-Novel-4273696.php

    Posted on February 18, 2013 - 01:56 AM #
  16. “This isn’t an animal. This is a subspecies of a human, and we believe they travel in groups,” Paulides said. “I think that the government probably is aware of the subject, but it’s difficult to give acknowledgement to something that they obviously can’t control.”

    Read the entire article from CBS 4 Denver:

    COLORADO RESEARCHERS SAY D.N.A. PROVES BIGFOOT IS REAL
    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/02/13/colorado-researchers-say-dna-proves-bigfoot-is-real/

    Posted on February 23, 2013 - 11:34 AM #
  17. I realize there’s no way this will sound as anything other than snarky and confrontational but until at such time someone produces a corpse (or better yet a living specimen) I find all of this utterly preposterous. There’s never been a shred of credible proof that has withstood informed critical scrutiny.

    I’ll forgo a point by point critical analysis of this bit of crypto zoological tomfoolery but simply state that the idea a species of that purported size in the kinds of numbers that would be required to sustain a population never having left a single scientifically verifiable trace of their existences is ridiculous.

    From that linked article, “Not a single research institution in the country has confirmed the DNA results”. Really? You don’t say!

    The preceding statements notwithstanding, I’d love for such things to exist. It would be really cool. Seriously.

    But for me, it’s in the same category as UFO phenomenon:

    Do I believe there’s life on other worlds? It’s highly probable. Almost to the point of a mathematical certainty. Thank you, Drake Equation with a side of shout-out to Mr. Sagan.

    Do I believe “they” are zooming around in flying saucers and abducting Floyd the tow truck driver from East Jesus, Arkansas to conduct experiments upon? Not a fucking chance.

    Show me some proof and I’ll happily Mea Culpa and then metaphorically hop on board.

    Until at such time someone produces a Big Foot pelt or a Gray shows up on Letterman, spare me.

    Posted on February 25, 2013 - 04:08 PM #
  18. motozak3

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    Posts: 4,469

    "Bigfoot is made up, just like all the other things that people claim to be true but are not, etc."

    "Show me some proof and I’ll happily Mea Culpa and metaphorically hop on board. Until at such time someone produces a Bigfoot pelt or a Gray shows up on Letterman, spare me."

    So, I guess that means you guys are made up/don't really exist, then. Anybody who's ever met me in person has absolute first-hand proof that Bigfoot really exists and has been living in Vancouver for nearly 30 years.

    Right, Skybill9?

    Posted on February 25, 2013 - 04:51 PM #
  19. Skybill9

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    Posts: 10,000

    "Right, Skybill9?"

    Nah, you don't have near enough hair!

    Posted on February 25, 2013 - 11:36 PM #
  20. motozak3

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    Posts: 4,469

    Well, *now* I don't. Couple years back I did, though, when I was still letting it grow out.

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 12:04 AM #
  21. LurkingGrendel said "From that linked article, “Not a single research institution in the country has confirmed the DNA results”. Really? You don’t say!"

    None of the research institutions have taken it on. Why? Because they've made up their minds the whole thing is stupid! THEY don't want to be associated with anything like Bigfoot. Readers who have also made up their minds about mythical creators like Abominable Snowman, would not take this institution seriously after the review.

    The good Doctor tried to get the D.N.A. test done last year but no D.N.A. lab would test the samples. It was only after the Doctor gave no name on the samples that a lab did the test. After the results were in the lab E-Mailed the Doctor very excited, wanting to know what kind of animal being had been discovered! When the Doctor told them the samples were Bigfoot D.N.A. The lab forbid her from using the lab name and sent back the testing money it cost for the results. This is what she's up against. It's already ruined her medical career she has said. Why would a Doctor ruin their career for a fleeting bit of notoriety on such a unbelievable subject, unless there was something more to it?

    Can you imagine in a court of law, a lawyer uses D.N.A. evidence. The defendant lawyer counters by saying. "Yes and that same D.N.A. lab says BIGFOOT IS REAL, LOL!!" That lab is finished!!

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 01:13 AM #
  22. To be clear, the following is offered in the continuing spirit of debate. People can “believe” whatever they want. However, when they post their thoughts and opinions in a public forum with the intent of convincing a third party their viewpoint has merit and should warrant further consideration they should expect (and welcome) critical discourse. Now, with that bit of disclaiming out of the way.

    You seem to be making some broad generalizations with little supportive evidence, Craig.

    You assert “no-one” will take the sample and conduct the testing. And that the reason no-one will do so is that collectively a judgment has been made the entire matter is “stupid”. That, and out of fear of impugning their (a genetic testing laboratory’s) scientific reputability.

    I didn’t read anything in the articles you provided that would support these assertions.

    Science is not in the business of offering unsupportable opinion. If a genetic lab could not identify a sample for whatever reason, and not being a geneticist or possessing an intricate understanding of any of the processes involved I cannot comment with specificity as to why that may be the case, they would simply say it’s unknown.

    If they did in fact inquire as to where the sample came from and/or what it may be, and were offered in reply something as asinine as “it’s bigfoot!”, skepticism if not outright mockery would be completely understandable. I.e. Whomever submitted the sample can claim whatever they want. Unless the doctor in question happened to rip a tuft a fur out of a passing Sasquatch and that phenomenon were also captured on film, how exactly would she know what it was, either? By scientific definition, it’s unknowable. Supposition and belief is not a substitute for accepted scientific process.

    Ergo, the conclusion of your premise re: the lab’s supposed motivations does not hold up. That, and not any opaque conspiracy theorizing may have more to do with the alleged damage to her career.

    (Related: Where did that tale you relayed come from? Did “she” give an interview somewhere detailing these allegations? I did not see it in either of the links you posted.)

    Contrary to what many seemingly believe without any real supportive evidence, I’m less than persuaded there’s a broad coalition of unwarranted skepticism or hostility directed at those utilizing sound scientific methodology in search of real answers to real questions.

    The actual reason there’s a lot of snorting, and derision at the bigfoot hunters is due to the simple ridiculousness of the entire premise. There’s never been a scrap of evidence that has withstood any kind of critical scrutiny that would suggest there’s a large (sustainable) population of gargantuan hominids traipsing through the backwoods of North America. There should be bones and/or entire skeletons, there should be deceased carcasses, there should be massive and incontrovertible forensic and physical evidence. Instead, there’s been decades and decades of pretty much nothing.

    The same fellow (Paulides) with the DNA sample he claims came from bigfoot also offers this bit of opinion in the same article: He (Paulides) says he’s surprised more people haven’t seen Bigfoot. He believes there could be as many as 50,000 in the wilderness.

    Uh, and he bases that on what, exactly? Wishful thinking?

    Most of the mainstream scientific community would be pretty surprised by that, too. Because it’s ludicrous. A population of that size would leave innumerable traces of its existence. Occam’s Razor applies here, IMO. I.e. They are not present.

    As noted previously, I love this kind of thing and I would love to believe in this kind of thing. I’m a long time fan of the absurd. I closely followed every case Fox Mulder and Dana Scully ever took on. I love ghost stories, and alien abduction movies, and read every book I could find as a kid on the Loch Ness monster, the Bermuda Triangle, and even our elusive friend Mr. Bigfoot. I still love all of this kind of stuff.

    But I love incontrovertible scientific evidence even more. Trot out a dead body and I’ll Mea Cupla publically on the morrow

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 01:19 PM #
  23. Alfredo_T

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    Posts: 5,303

    I want to be a respectful skeptic, but I am a skeptic nonetheless.

    My understanding of how genetic testing works is that samples are tested against things that are known. If the samples of hair that Paulides submits came from a bear, the lab would (theoretically) determine that the sample matches bear DNA. I wonder, though, whether any commercial genetic testing labs have the resources to test unknown samples like this. The lab would have to analyze the sample and then compare it against bear, fox, deer, ape, mouse, cat, human, etc. DNA. They probably could narrow the search down by the number of chromosomes found, but this would still be a huge undertaking.

    Ironically, I think that the labs' refusal of the samples is saving Paulides a great deal of embarrassment. This way, he gets to have a nice story and put a conspiracy spin on it for believers and fans.

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 04:38 PM #
  24. Trail of evidence here folks...

    DNA is great but you MUST establish a trail of evidence..Gosh that is basic logic 101 ...

    Where did the DNA sample come from ??? That has to be documented and corraborated first of all. Otherwise the sample means little..despite all and sundry assertions to the contrary or otherwise !! You could have someone one pranking the whole system by collecting some DNA from a known Hominid and asserting that it was collected from some fictionalized source...

    Its like forensics..

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 06:01 PM #
  25. LurkingGrendel said:

    "You seem to be making some broad generalizations with little supportive evidence, Craig."

    "You assert “no-one” will take the sample and conduct the testing. And that the reason no-one will do so is that collectively a judgment has been made the entire matter is “stupid”. That, and out of fear of impugning their (a genetic testing laboratory’s) scientific reputability."

    "I didn’t read anything in the articles you provided that would support these assertions."

    -------------------

    Yes, that is correct. I should have mentioned the background I wrote (above) was from the Doctor's account of this ongoing national story, she related on "Coast To Coast AM" on KEX.

    The Bigfoot samples tested were not randomly found. The doctor only tested clean samples. Anything not pure would have tested lower that 85% and would not have been a positive identification. She mentioned that 85% is normal for positive human identification. That's why the lab was so excited until they found out what they had tested.

    Samples were gathered a home known to have the creatures in the area. Plates of food were places in the area. After the food was eaten. The family would pick up the plates with gloves and place them in plastic bags, storing them in their freezer for the Doctor to pick up. She mentioned on one of those occasions, she witnessed one of the creatures.

    Posted on February 26, 2013 - 09:21 PM #
  26. None of that sounds particularly scientific. Her research methodology is deeply flawed and basically boils down to “Hey, guess what I did and what I saw” coupled with “You’ll have to take my word for all of this”.

    Uh, no. That’s not how it works.

    It’s on par with any number of similar stories you’d encounter watching any of the schlock, tabloid level, “reality” show you can find on basic cable featuring a group of bigfoot hunters breathlessly relaying amazing tales of monster encounters claimed to have been experienced by the locals.

    Her tale, and that's really all it is, doesn’t address a single critical element outlined above in multiple postings. Sidebar: This “scientist” left out plates of food for Ye Ole Sasquatch with the intention of capturing DNA, an let’s not forget furthermore she claims to have seen one, but she couldn’t be bothered to set up high quality digital cameras to ensure the phenomenon is documented?

    Please.

    There’s a simple reason no-one has been able to do that after decades of trying.

    Where are the bodies? Where are the bones? Where is the forensic evidence? How could a breeding population of gargantuan hominids avoid all manner of detection and avoid having left a single piece of scientifically verifiable evidence of their existence for hundreds of years?

    There’s a simple reason no-one has been able to do that, either.

    Posted on February 27, 2013 - 08:14 AM #
  27. So you believe the Doctor did not submit a D.N.A. sample to a lab, the Doctor made the story up, is that correct?

    Posted on February 27, 2013 - 06:13 PM #
  28. Submitting a sample of DNA mixed with food, left over on a plate,
    is a lot different than submitting DNA from a proper cheek swab or a blood sample .

    That said, confirmation of a proper sample , say , from a cigarette butt or a drinking glass etc...is accomplished by comparing a number of what they call known reference allels of known HUMAN dna..its like a reference template. The sample is then VERIFIED...but verified as to SPECIES..Species verification...then other characters identified..

    If you dont know the species of the creature that left the sample , and you dont know the quality of the sample, you cant know whether or not it is or has been contaminated or altered in some way.

    Now, what can be done is to have corraboration , somewhow, of the validity and/or quality of the sample. If there is some reasonable verification of just the quality even , then the DNA can be analyzed and a determination made one way or another...in our vast DNA data base these days...

    The reason any credible lab would bow out of this is because no one has been able to verify either the validity or quality of said sample...and they dont want their reputation tarnished over a potential tabloid farce.

    Posted on February 27, 2013 - 07:05 PM #
  29. The Doctor gave the lab clean samples, with no contamination. If other animals would have eaten from the plates as well, they would have shown up, bringing the test sample percentage down to a level that could not be determined. If the test had not come back as positive, it would have muddied the entire project. She could not take that chance in something like this.

    Posted on February 27, 2013 - 07:20 PM #
  30. Vitalogy

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 7,227

    Bigfoot is made up. If Bigfoot was real, we would have documented it by now. The same goes for the Loch Ness Monster, the easter bunny, Santa Claus, and the big pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

    None of them exist, period.

    Posted on February 27, 2013 - 09:34 PM #
  31. Alfredo_T

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 5,303

    How does the doctor know that these samples are clean and legitimate? Does she have photographic evidence showing that only Bigfoot touched the plates?

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 02:23 AM #
  32. Legitimate? She doesn't NEED a photograph (that will never work anymore with photoshop). The Doctor has something far more powerful, DNA! If this DNA isn't what she says it is, then what is it? This lab was not able to connect it to any known species? By mixing other animals in with the sample, all that would have done is NOT make a possible identification of anything. That didn't happen here. The lab had a clear identification of an unknown species. Maybe it's not Bigfoot. Maybe it's an Leprechaun! Whatever it is, IT'S NEVER BEEN RECORDED IN THE ANNALS OF SCIENCE...UNTIL NOW.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 03:08 AM #
  33. duxrule

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 4,912

    Not so fast, Craig. There are some pretty serious questions about the validity of this person's "findings":

    "...However, the legitimacy of the scientific journal that published the Sasquatch Genome Project is being questioned: Ketchum, a Texas researcher and former veterinarian, purchased the publication after her study, titled “Novel North American Hominins: Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole Genomes and Associated Studies,” had been rejected by other journals.

    “Rather than spend another five years just trying to find a journal to publish and hoping that decent, open minded reviewers would be chosen, we acquired the rights to this journal and renamed it so we would not lose the passing peer reviews that are expected by the public and the scientific community,” wrote Ketchum on the project’s website.

    The DeNovo Scientific Journal has no other studies, articles, papers or reviews, and only Ketchum’s paper has been “published” by the journal, NBC News pointed out. It also is not subscribed to by any major library or university, and its website apparently didn’t exist until three weeks ago. In the words of LiveScience’s Benjamin Radford, “It is not an existing, known or respected journal in any sense of the word.”"

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/21/bigfoot-dna-evidence-is-published-but-more-questions-are-raised/#ixzz2MCdNhKBw

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 07:09 AM #
  34. Craig inquired, “So you believe the Doctor did not submit the D.N.A. sample to a lab, the Doctor made the story up, is that correct”?

    I alleged no such thing. I stated her story is just that; a story. It’s completely unsubstantiated. I stated that her methods are sloppy and that her conclusions are deeply suspect. That she did not engage in anything remotely resembling accepted scientific methodology. If you view the matter objectively I think you’d be hard pressed to argue those points.

    Furthermore, I stated that there could presumably be any number of reasons for a lab to be unable to identify a DNA sample. Not being a geneticist I cannot speak with specificity nor clarity as to that save to note a quick Google search pulled up pages upon pages of possible explanations that do not require believing in mythical creatures.

    I.e. This is nowhere near as cut and dry and you’re seemingly committed to making it appear.

    And the issue of the story and the suspect and factually unsupportable conclusions aside, you’re continuing to ignore everything else that makes both her story as well as the entire bigfoot phenomenon appear completely ludicrous.

    The scientific community at large is not skeptical (anymore than I am) due to some kind of innate and generalized hostility to the acceptance of seemingly wild or outlandish theories At best, that’s a common defensive meme among the crypto zoology crowd. Rather, the skepticism derives from an overwhelming lack of supportable evidence of any kind spanning the decades upon decades and that the bigfoot “ theory” relies primarily upon belief rather than a measurable or observable phenomena. The belief is in defiance of reason.

    Semi unrelated sidebar: That’s the reason for widespread and entirely warranted skepticism that met claims of a Plesiosaur type creature swimming around that loch in Scotland. The science did not and does not support that belief. The ecosystem could not support a large animal of that type. Period. Ergo, it’s not there. And that is the reason there’s never been a shred of credible evidence proving the inverse in this case, either.

    Seizing upon the one thing that may appear to support a theory you support while disregarding the hundreds of other things that call that theory into question is not being intellectually honest.

    Sidebar, too: I’m sorry, but digital photography and filming WOULD “work”. While we live in a digital age wherein images can be manipulated by those possessing the technical acumen there are any number of ways to verify the accuracy of an image or prove beyond a reasonable doubt if it has been tampered with or not. So the “doctor” made the willing choice to avoid filming these supposed bigfoot creatures snatching burgers from a plate in the backyard for what reason, exactly? Because people would claim she photo shopped them up and they’d be dismissed? There’s no polite way to put this so I’m not going to try to: Bullshit.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 08:03 AM #
  35. duxrule & LurkingGrendel:

    If the entire announcement was just a story, why is it that none of the respected scientific journals have come out and said the Doctor has no evidence of an unknown species. End of story.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 06:55 PM #
  36. duxrule

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 4,912

    End of story? Not by a long shot:

    "... In fact, researchers from Oxford University and the Lausanne Museum of Zoology announced last year that they would test any supposed Sasquatch samples that believers volunteered to send.

    "I'm challenging and inviting the cryptozoologists to come up with the evidence instead of complaining that science is rejecting what they have to say," geneticist Bryan Sykes of the University of Oxford told LiveScience in May 2012.

    In an interview on the MonsterTalk podcast, Dr. Todd Disotell of the New York University Molecular Anthropology Laboratory dismissed the idea that Bigfoot could be a primate that arose as recently as Ketchum's DNA results claim: "If it's a primate that is so similar to us, that's only separated from us about 15,000 years ago, that's us," he said. "Even with people of European extraction, we've got 50,000 years of common ancestry since we left Africa." In other words, there is far more than 15,000 years of genetic diversity among ordinary humans, so the idea that something that split from our lineage would be as different from us as Bigfoot is absurd."
    http://www.livescience.com/27140-bigfoot-dna-study-questioned.html

    "...However, geneticists who have seen the paper are not impressed. “To state the obvious, no data or analyses are presented that in any way support the claim that their samples come from a new primate or human-primate hybrid," Leonid Kruglyak of Princeton University told the Houston Chronicle. “Instead, analyses either come back as 100 percent human, or fail in ways that suggest technical artifacts.”

    The website for the DeNovo Journal of Science was setup on February 4, and there is no indication that Ketchum’s work, the only study it has published, was peer reviewed."
    http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/34395/title/Bigfoot-DNA-is-Bunk/#sthash.3pDeO8Ag.dpuf

    That took less than a minute to find on Google.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 07:04 PM #
  37. maqa

    new electron
    Posts: 4

    Craig -
    Thanks for re publishing these old stories, which are still relevant today, and show how this information has been repressed more recently.
    I found your posting while looking for the statement made by 3 tribal chiefs to dissuade law enforcement at the time from their plan to massacre the sasquatches who had killed or injured 2 of the miners, while trying to oust them from their territory. (They probably called them Seeahtik.)
    They said that these were a tribe of different, very powerful people, with whom they were acquainted, and had traded with (for copper, maybe gold), and that it would be a serious mistake to kill them.
    Do you know where I might find this?

    It's too bad that there is such a denial of the existence of these giant hominids (people), who inhabit the forests of the north around the globe. Or could it be a good thing, since they don't really want to be found? Thom Powell has speculated that government agencies are trying to suppress this information, for example by imposing a gag order on those who have met sasquatches emerging from the woods burnt in more than one forest fire. Their motivations might be to protect lumber companies from restrictions on logging and/or to allow the intelligence agencies to capture them for secret study of their esoteric defense techniques such as ultra/infra sound and repellent odor.
    Powell also believes that there are "trolls" paid to deny their existence to the public and shame those who believe they are real and who are coming out in the open, more and more, in hundreds or thousands of reported and verified sightings each year.
    Folks, as far as scientific evidence, keep in mind that "science" needs a higher degree of direct contact than we may ever get from these nocturnal hunter-gatherers who live in remote places and mostly hide from us. It took years for "science" to certify that koala bears were real, and previously unknown animals are found every year.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 08:33 PM #
  38. duxrule: Great points! The Doctor needs to give her samples to Oxford University and get this settled.

    maqa: Thank You for your post and welcome our group. I will do some research in The Oregonian archives and see if I can find anything.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 08:35 PM #
  39. Vitalogy

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 7,227

    Bigfoot does not exist. If it did, we'd have physical proof. Any further discussion is meaningless.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 09:26 PM #
  40. More than a few incredibly valid points have been raised; and utterly ignored.

    Clearly, it's a conspiracy. The government doesn't want them to be found!

    Perfect.

    And done.

    It's mildy entertaining right up until the moment it becomes disturbing and that turnpike as been reached.

    Search away. Let me know when you find that corpse.

    Posted on February 28, 2013 - 10:52 PM #
  41. Actually this makes all the more sense now...

    This lab that refused to analyze the DNA sample, did so because they were unprepared for such a potential controversial outcome.

    But, I suspect, that the good Doctor knew about Lausanne and their offer...and had some kind of reason NOT to take them up on it .

    I wonder what that might have been ?

    Posted on March 1, 2013 - 08:57 AM #
  42. I believe that there is a small chance that something like a Sasquatch , Yetti , Abominable Snowman, or unknown Hominid, might exist. These creatures have been reported to the far corners of our planet over the centuries..

    However, I become more of a conformist when DNA evidence is to be involked here . I have been involved with DNA as it relates to Genealogy. I have had about 6 different DNA assays done over the last 10 years or so. Also, I have had some higher education in the bio-sciences...so its hard for me to swallow this alleged DNA trail or even the proposed trail of evidence..at least from what I have seen thus far

    Posted on March 1, 2013 - 09:27 AM #
  43. maqa

    new electron
    Posts: 4

    This article/audio might answer some or all of your questions about theKetchum DNA study.
    http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=2070&category=Science
    That is, if you want more information, or have questions, and are not just a preconfirmed sasquatch denier eager to make the case against.

    It also suggests to me another aspect of the attempts at a cover up of the existence of sasquatch: that there are extraordinary pressures of secrecy and threats being placed upon the scientific community to hide the evidence. Read it and you'll see this too.

    Posted on March 2, 2013 - 07:04 PM #
  44. maqa

    new electron
    Posts: 4

    kennewickman - I just noticed that my last post appears directed to your last post - sorry, I didn't mean to direct it at you! I do think you might be interested in the Ketchum interview I gave the link to, but I did not intend to suggest you are a sasquatch denier!
    I was reacting to some of the earlier posts. My bad.

    Posted on March 2, 2013 - 08:00 PM #
  45. Monster

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 340

    I want to believe that Bigfoot is real but I tend to agree with what Vitalogy says.

    Posted on March 2, 2013 - 09:29 PM #
  46. maqa: Did a search of "The Oregonian" on-line looking for the article you mentioned and didn't find anything. Also checked some old books (below) I have on the subject that included articles from the early 20th Century but there wasn't a match. It's amazing the amount of stories on this subject involving Miners.

    "On The Track of The Sasquatch" (5th Edition) by John Green (c) 1968.

    "Year of The Sasquatch" (2nd Edition) by John Green (c) 1970.

    Posted on March 3, 2013 - 12:47 AM #
  47. Interesting article...Im' not gettin' the " Female-Male" hybrid part of this , however..

    Posted on March 3, 2013 - 08:54 AM #
  48. maqa

    new electron
    Posts: 4

    For those who want to know more about the DNA sequencing information, a new hour+ long interview with Melba Ketchum on "Coast to Coast" is at
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fam93iRdtEo
    Starts about 5 minutes into the program.

    "Published on Feb 18, 2013:
    "Dr. Melba Ketchum joins George Knapp to discuss the official release of her DNA analysis of possible Bigfoot hair samples, she explains why she self published her Bigfoot DNA in her newly created "Scientific Journal" DeNovo. She also talks about her experience with bigfoot, and habituation."

    About male & female DNA. There are 2 kinds: nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA.
    I only know that nuclear is from the father's side + the mother's side and mitochandrial is more detailed (?) and from the mother's side. Both were done for this study. It showed that sasquatch was a hybrid, of 2 different species, way back then when it first appeared, about 15-16,000 years ago.
    That's all I know. It's very technical. You might be able to find out more at
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_DNA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

    Posted on March 5, 2013 - 11:25 AM #
  49. duxrule

    vacuum tube
    Posts: 4,912

    There's a talk on Sasquatch Research set for this Saturday up at the Timberland Library on Saturday. I'm pretty sure there will also be an opportunity for you to give this guy money, if that's your desire.

    Bigfoot Researcher to Give ‘Sasquatch 101’ Talk in Centralia
    http://www.chronline.com/news/article_eea4b7e0-85ab-11e2-8355-0019bb2963f4.html

    Posted on March 5, 2013 - 11:30 AM #
  50. Science, I tells ya.

    Posted on March 6, 2013 - 01:00 PM #

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