http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/?gt1=43001
It's finally happened. Gunshots fired at a political rally and it appears as of this time Rep Gifford from AZ was killed.
Any bets the suspect is a right wing nut?
Gun carryin extreme right wing anti-abortion LimBLAH listenin CONer. I bet you a million dollars FAUXNews will give this idiot a talk show very soon.
When I heard news of this assassination about 30 minutes ago, my first thought was, "I'll bet that there are already posts on PDXRadio along the lines of, 'Those Goddamned Tea-Baggers did it!'"
I want to know more about the shooter, but Giffords was one of the members of congress in Sarah Palin's crosshairs. Check it out:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/an-assassination.html
Updated facts:
Aide is dead, Congresswoman in surgery.
Automatic weapon used.
Very very disconcerting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html
Prognostication:
It's a right wing gun nut with no "history" of violence carrying a "legal" automatic weapon.
That makes a bigger case for the anti-gun nuts out there.
This attack was disgusting and horrifying. But let's not pin a label on anyone yet or blame anyone besides the shooter. There are a lot of nuts out there.
Not ok.
You can say what you want about "the left", but we are not the ones who are enabling nuts like this. Violence is not the answer to policy differences.
BECK, HANNITY, LIMBAUGH, others are inciting violence and selling hate all day long, and we get this. Bet that ass has a copy of "Culture War" somewhere.
And Republicans openly validate racism, bigotry and theocracy too.
I hope everybody has to get a license to carry a gun, and have to check in every week to demonstrate they know where the hell it is, get fingerprinted, and submit to anal cavity searches, just because.
Andrew fair point, however, I'm just not ok with the hate and validation of core civil rights violations. Absolutely not above linking this shit back to the worst of them, rubbing it right in the face of the party of corporate hate.
Seems to me, if that's a problem, they can just tone down the ugly rhetoric and avoid all the issues. Fine by me.
U.S. Capitol police say the shooter is in custody.
But let's not pin a label on anyone yet or blame anyone besides the shooter.
I agree.
Although I personally disapprove of further restrictions on 2nd Amendment rights, nothing should be a reason for anyone to use guns to kill anyone.
If one doesn't like anothers' politics, that's what elections are for. If the candidate one favors does not win, tough; IMO being an American means one must honor and respect the outcome.
Diluting the argument serves neither side.
The second amendment predates automatic weapons. If they knew then what we have now, things would be a lot different.
Was this a coincidence or an opportunity?
"The bill acted on by Brewer was the first attempt to lift the [concealed weapons] permit requirement to reach an Arizona governor's desk."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/16/politics/main6404742.shtml
Not shocking, but sad as hell.
The only shocking thing (Ok, not shocking. Just pathetic) will be watching the the right wing media go into overdrive spinning this so there couldn't possibly be any connection between the hateful and ignorant drivel they troll forth, up to and including actually inciting violence against others, and the actions of an individual who no doubt heard the underlying (no matter how idiotic) messages loud and clear.
Her 2010 congressional opponent was a Tea Party whack job. Endorsed by Palin, of course. His campagin language was filled with the usual, threatening nonsense up to and including reference to guns, civil unrest, and "revolution".
America, meet Jared Lee Loughner...
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
http://www.myspace.com/fallenasleep
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001936834758
http://azstarnet.com/events/collection_aebeb63c-2f9e-11df-9021-001cc4c002e0.html?mode=image&photo=8
Clearly evidence of one very paranoid individual, which typifies right wing extreme politics.
Nail on the head!
Or any extreme
But MOST of the time it's right wingers shooting up shit. YOUR so 2nd amendment crazy. Where in the 2nd amendment does it say "AUTOMATIC WEAPONS"??????
In the end, you can't blame anyone other than the shooter, however the extreme rhetoric from the right wing talkers contributed to this tragic shooting.
Extremists on the right generally kill, while extremists on the left generally destroy property.
Doesn't surprise me at all, the rhetoric of Glenn Beck and Lars Larson, the gun culture of Sheriff Joe Arpaio. It creates an environment for this to happen.
"We {Arizona] have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."
"That may be free speech, but it's not without consequences."
Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is one of a kind. He might be the first member of law enforcement to cite talk radio specifically as a potential crime motive.
Jared Loughner did not act alone. This case is still unfolding and far from over, but I get the sense that our national wake up call was this morning.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families.
"my first thought was, "I'll bet that there are already posts on PDXRadio along the lines of, 'Those Goddamned Tea-Baggers did it!'"
And that Vitalogy would be the one to start it.
Andy Brown: "Automatic weapon used."
From the article you linked: “I think it was a semiautomatic, and he must have got off 20 rounds.”
There is a lot of difference between AUTOMATIC and SEMIautomatic.
Using the terms interchangeably is typical of our gun hating media. It is used to incite fear in people about guns.
OK. That being said, it’s too bad one of the cops using their semiautomatic pistols didn't pop this guy in the head and save the taxpayers of AZ a bunch of money. He should have left the scene in a body bag.
The guy was way off base. As stated above, if you don't like a politician, VOTE them out don't kill or try to kill them.
As with LS, my prayers are also with the victims and their family and supporters.
This guy should die a slow and painful death.
>>the extreme rhetoric from the right wing talkers contributed to this tragic shooting
Never have heard any of that kinda talk ever..name names and give audio links...
"Prognostication:
It's a right wing gun nut with no "history" of violence carrying a "legal" automatic weapon."
See my post above.
Yes you can legally have automatic weapons BUT it takes special licensing, permits and fees.
If he was carrying the gun legally, it was more than likely a SEMI-automatic weapon.
Andrew said: "This attack was disgusting and horrifying. But let's not pin a label on anyone yet or blame anyone besides the shooter. There are a lot of nuts out there."
So far that is the smartest post in this thread, mine included.
You know, I'm just not gonna let any of that go.
HANNITY, LIMBAUGH, BECK, et al. enable this shit. They put the hate out there, and they validate it, mainstreaming it.
Racism, bigotry, theocracy, all promoted in terms that justify violence, and presented in ways that link differences in policy as personal threats.
This happens all the time, and the product of it has been a slow escalation of the national tension we face today.
It's not ok.
Everything costs something in this world, and when we over exploit things, risk goes up, and we pay a price. Often this price is not paid individually, but together, as a nation.
This is one of those costs.
Free speech comes with some responsibility. We've reached a point where we are not taking that seriously anymore, and that is costing us in terms of our freedom in these things, and a lot of other things as a whole.
With the recent laws that have passed, it's not too much of a stretch to see things move to a more authoritarian (as if it isn't now anyway) mode, where we really don't have anywhere near the personal freedom we enjoy now, and what we enjoy now is considerably reduced from what we enjoyed just 20 years ago.
There are basic boundaries in play here, and those boundaries form the common norms that really make a lot of things work well. Violate the boundaries, and that changes the norms, and things won't work well, and where things are not working we get law.
Count on it.
Every Conservative on the planet, who hates government intruding on our lives, should be thinking long and hard at the asses their party is tolerating to win elections, only to fuck everybody over economically.
With the economic damage, comes this. Count on that too. When times get tough, bad things escalate, and that's no place I want to live.
So yeah, damn straight. This needs to be linked to the clowns that promote it, and should be linked in a solid way regularly. What is the media reaction to this?
Insulating the GOP from this garbage, despite the fact that Palin had a gun recticle target icon on this State, with this member of Congress named!
Why?
Because the party of racism, bigotry and theocracy is in bed with the corporations to rape, pillage, and abuse the people for profit.
Sue me. That's actually what I think about this crap.
"You know, I'm just not gonna let any of that go.
HANNITY, LIMBAUGH, BECK, et al. enable this shit. They put the hate out there, and they validate it, mainstreaming it.
Racism, bigotry, theocracy, all promoted in terms that justify violence, and presented in ways that link differences in policy as personal threats.
This happens all the time, and the product of it has been a slow escalation of the national tension we face today.
It's not ok."
-----------
You're damn right, it's not OK.
But in typical liberal fashion you are trying to put the blame somewhere it doesn't belong.
The blame belongs 10000000000% on the F' head that pulled the trigger.
It doesn't matter if he listened to Beck, Limbaugh or the damn Pope. This goes back to what I said in another post RIGHT IS RIGHT and WRONG IS WRONG.
However, to simplify the response I got; "No there is no definite right and definite wrong. If it makes you feel good then its right and if it doesn't then it's wrong."
Its dumb ass thinking like that that enables ass heads like this guy to do these kinds of things.
Think about that and what is right and what is wrong.
NO.
It doesn't work that way. Norms are not individual things. Boundaries are not individual things. They are cultural things, and a whole lot of what enables you to walk down the street in relative safety depends on all of us towing the line on basic stuff.
Here's a great, simple example of that.
Do you fuck in front of little kids? No. Why? Because early exposure to those kinds of things messes people up.
Now two scenarios:
Take somebody like that ass and surround them with solid people, and present them with enough outs to get through life with few worries, and probably they get busted for bar fighting or something.
Take that same person and add 20 years of hate, and the bar fight is probably the best case scenario.
Tolerate the bigot, and live in a world full of bigots. Want to live in a polite world, filled with the please and thank you's? Same thing. Look in the mirror, and it starts right there, and it ends with holding the line on basic boundaries and considerations.
We can't legislate these things.
Of course he pulled the trigger. I'm not arguing that LIMBAUGH, et al. did. But, you can bet that hearing that garbage validated contributed to the idea that pulling the trigger was somehow justified, because: [insert racism, bigotry, theocracy] is a threat that somehow warrants violence, when the truth is it doesn't.
The question is how did he get to the point where it was somehow ok to pull the trigger? That's material to this incident, make no mistake about it. There have been others too. There will be MORE.
You watch. Somebody somewhere will pull a "just kidding" moment, saying something really shitty about this, validating it, hinting at the fact that "things happen when", then will walk it back, because they don't want the heat, leaving the message heard loud and clear to "the few and the brave", "who want their country back".
It was all fun 'n games bringing guns to Obama rallies and speeches, until somebody gets shot. Now, second amendment fans, how much you want to bet that's gonna change?
I have a few questions for the whole "our audience is uninfluenced and unaffected by what they hear on the radio no matter what rhetoric we use" crowd.
If your audience is merely entertained and never influenced to act, how can you sell spots? Thirty seconds about aluminum siding should send a much weaker message in proportion to the last ten minutes of hysterical ranting, right? Say, at least 20 times weaker?
Normal people can process information in a rational way and make decisions. The mentally ill cannot. Unfortunately, talk radio forgot their role as a trusted companion. It was largely taken over by a crowd of xenophobes who parse information, pander to the worst in people and are malignantly negative.
Media in general, but talk radio specifically is a direct conduit to the criminally insane and the violent fringe. Sometimes they act and people die a horrible death. This is a long established fact. Anyone who wants to argue about it should Google up Alan Berg.
Even the most apolitical and friendly hosts are fully aware of this fact and often take security measures. While extreme talkers may be vocally concerned for their own safety, they never ever consider the consequences to the community at large for their hateful rhetoric and seditious suggestions.
Generating revenue by sustaining old bigotries and cultivating paranoia is a morally bankrupt way to make a living. The First Amendment is not a big shield. The First Amendment is a lot of responsibility.
Six dead now.
Can't you just hear Limblah, Hammity and Beck on Monday .... "such a tragedy but this is clearly the fault of the Obama administration's failure to <insert favorite issue here>."
The scum of the right wing media machine will use the tragedy to further their own pile of horeshit, irregardless of what the more responsible political leaders of the GOP say.
"Using the terms interchangeably is typical of our gun hating media. It is used to incite fear in people about guns."
Bullshit. Getting off 20 rounds clearly shows that there is little need to distinguish between the two, and I'm disappointed that's the best you got. Aren't extended clips illegal everywhere? They should be. And you're also wrong about the "gun hating media," it's the gun toting whackos executing people in incidents like this that incites fear in the public.
">>the extreme rhetoric from the right wing talkers contributed to this tragic shooting
Never have heard any of that kinda talk ever..name names and give audio links..."
Are you serious? How many links and to which dick breathed right wing hate mongering commentators do you want?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONw4800Ky3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFWOLSIhYMg
I have no doubt that public rhetoric influences these nuts and may encourage them to commit violent crimes. But, I also believe in a free society, and such freedom definitely has consequences. Pornography - even something like Playboy Magazine - has been known to influence certain people to commit rape and other crimes. Not MOST PEOPLE - but this stuff can have a bad influence on disturbed people. I don't think porn should be banned either.
The benefits of a free society far outweigh the few nasty unfortunately drawbacks like occasional violent crimes. I don't think people like Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck should be banned from speaking as they have, but I also see nothing wrong with criticizing them. We can't know if anything such people have said ever influenced the kook in Tucson but it would not be the first time rhetoric has inspired some crazies to go kill people.
LS: "If your audience is merely entertained and never influenced to act, how can you sell spots? After all, thirty seconds about aluminum siding should be a much weaker message in proportion to the last ten minutes of hysterical ranting, right? Say, at least 20 times weaker?"
That's it right there. If you think that hateful broadcasters on radio (or media in general) don't influence their listeners to do hateful things, then you are admitting that commercial radio is a failed business model, and that radio advertising is wholly ineffective. Yes Bill, it does matter whether a person listens to Beck, Libmaugh, or the damn Pope.
Which one is it, Bill? Is commercial radio a persuasive medium or not?
That is right...We do live in a free society..Trying to pin this primarily on Hannity and Limbaugh and their politcal ilk ( whom I rarely listen to ) is totally biased and selective analysis.
It is a long known fact that " whack jobs "..crazy people...fringe thinkers..what ever you want to call them...are severly affected by what is known as ..VITRIOL .....this has been true of human beings since the beginning our existance...
Vitrol of choice....and people that are whacked out..respond inappropriately to Vitriol ...do they kill people...certainly most do NOT. But they respond inappropriately in some way, usually.
So ,now , it was his response that is prosecutable and in question here. And we dont know what he was responding to ,..Yet.. From what we know now, his postings on the internet...are a rather disjointed collection of things...like that he is a " conscious dreamer " what ever the hell that is ~~~...sounds like something out of the friggin' communal California Hippy 60s, apparently he dreams wide awake and that he doesnt need to sleep as a result( Schizo or a Bi-Polar IMO ) .....combined with ramblings about our Money standard, and Gold, and how his mission is to create a ' NEW worldwide currency "...etc etc..
So, dont rant on about the right wing and the Tea Party and Limabaugh and Hannity and Palin just yet....
Correct, KwM. We don't know enough yet to know what influenced this kid to perform this horrible deed.
But he did not achieve his state of mind in a vacuum; he is the product of cultural influences. These will be revealed in time.
We are all a product of our cultural influences...
But we dont do things like this..or even close..
What WE do is get on this board and VENT and RANT and try to influence others to our points ...Which is healthy and prudent as long as we respect one another ...
I guess he was interested in " Mein Kampf" also...Well, that is an old chestnut...
And then again why did he shoot 19 people??? Including a 9 year old girl ?
That isnt politcal motivation , that is just blind cruelty .Now, of course he may have been initially motivated to go to a rally of a moderate Democrat ( a blue dog as she decribed herself)...she voted for Healthcare..big deal...she was a mover and shaker behind border control and immigration issues...?? Well after all this IS Arizona and so no surpise there..
Would you call this tragedy the most VIVID in the eyes/minds of Americans
involving the gunning down of a U.S. politician since the WALLACE attempt in '72?.
..I would..
I would too..
Can't you just hear Limblah, Hammity and Beck on Monday .... "such a tragedy but this is clearly the fault of the Obama administration's failure to <insert favorite issue here>."
I surprised that LimBLAH, Insannity, (((GB))) and O'LIEly didn't have breaking news all through the day to tell us how much this was Obummers fault!
Would you call this tragedy the most VIVID in the eyes/minds of Americans
involving the gunning down of a U.S. politian since the WALLACE attempt in '72?.
If I were ar Republican or Teabagger I might have a pair of eyes put in the back of my head from this point forward. There are nuts on the left side as well. They just don't use (AUTOMATIC) WMD's to kill people.
Re: PLAYBOY. Perfect.
Put those asses on subscription radio, just like we put the porn in the back room, or covered on the shelf, just so we make it clear that shit isn't for everybody.
Dr. Laura did the right thing. Trendsetter in my book.
Re: Focusing on the three, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity.
Of course not. There are a lot of mini-me types doing similar things. I think it's a decency problem. We don't air lots of stuff, and I think if you can't say, "fuck" on the radio, without it being subscription, then I think it's only fair to put the racism, bigotry and theocracy there too.
Re: We don't know enough yet.
Absolutely, and I'll own that easily enough. All I know is I see a distinct escalation of rhetoric and violence, and it's just not ok with me across the board.
Seeing this kind of thing happen doesn't help any, that's for damn sure.
I wonder if Lynette Squeaky Fromm was/is a right winger, or a tea bagger ? or likes Sarah Palin ? Or listens to Hannity or Limbaugh in Prison ?
I'll bet Squeaky is a liberal Democrat...Just like all the other Mansonites
just sayin'..she used a gun to try to assasinate Gerald Ford...
I bet you Manson isn't!
ummm...I believe Squeaky WAS a Democrat - AND liberal, no question...
..looking like a 'Janis Joplin' wanna-be...
Well Manson used to have a Swastika etched scar on his forhead...its not there anymore..
..those 'isolation-area' prison guards must've gave Charles a bar of 'LAVA'..
Before discounting any potential connections to the media, remember that talk radio has already used Arizona for a potentially violent publicity stunt. In this case, the man who volunteered to participate was not motivated to any aggressive action.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/18/right-wing-radio-host-sta_n_262559.html
It really should not surprise anyone if this was a similarly prearranged media event that went terribly and horribly wrong. A fresh faced young volunteer would fit the role. A blindly opportunistic producer would not grill him about his intentions behind participating.
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