'WikiLeaks cables reveal how US manipulated climate accord.'
Thanks in part to the CIA, no less.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/dec/03/wikileaks-us-manipulated-climate-accord
Posted on December 4, 2010 - 09:09 PM
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How Leftist Sheep Were Led Astray On Global Warming
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The key question Herb, is WHY.
Let me know when you get there, and you can then tell me it has nothing to do with "leftists".
Posted on December 4, 2010 - 09:35 PM # -
Extreme CONers led astray by LimBLAH on why they like to lock-step!
Posted on December 5, 2010 - 12:02 AM # -
Who led me astray? I don't listen to talk radio.
Posted on December 5, 2010 - 12:05 AM # -
You're such an intellectually dishonest troll. Your headline is not even reflective of what the news story you linked is actually about.
As a matter of fact it's misleading and inaccurate. What a surprise.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 08:16 AM # -
"Who led me astray? I don't listen to talk radio."
Me either! Why listen to boring talk radio when there is SO much good music to listen to?
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 11:59 AM # -
here here...
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 01:48 PM # -
"The key question Herb, is WHY."
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub779.pdf
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub862.pdf
http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/ClimateChange_CSR32.pdf
http://securityandclimate.cna.org/report/CNA_NatlSecurityAndTheThreatOfClimateChange.pdf
http://www.edf.org/documents/3566_AbruptClimateChange.pdf
http://www.secureamericanfuture.org/resources/ClimateSecurityIndex_lowres.pdf
http://www.abanet.org/environ/pubs/nre/winter08/globalclimatechange_natsec.pdf
http://www.pacinst.org/reports/environment_and_security/env_security_and_climate_change.pdf
http://www.trumanproject.org/files/backgrounders/Climate_Change_BG_FINAL.pdf
http://www.gechs.org/downloads/holmen/Busby.pdf
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/111/48332.pdf
http://www.ciesin.columbia.edu/documents/Climate_Security_CIESIN_July_2008_v1_0.ed.pdf
http://www.igsd.org/documents/PR_climate_change__security_final.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/071105_ageofconsequences.pdf
http://fletcher.tufts.edu/maritime/documents/ArcticSecurity.pdf
http://environment.yale.edu/climate/files/IntlPublicOpinion.pdf
http://www.pewclimate.org/docUploads/national-security-implications-memo-august2009.pdf
http://www.nato-pa.int/default.asp?SHORTCUT=1772
http://files.eesi.org/climate_security_072810.pdf
http://lawreview.richmond.edu/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Rosen-443-AC1.pdf
http://est.sandia.gov/earth/docs/National_Security_and_Climate_Instability.pdfBelly up to a buffet of information, Herbie. Save room for pie.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 03:03 PM # -
The following is an incontrovertible statment: There is virtually unanimous agreement in the scientific community in support of human-caused global warming.
Speaking of "sheep", Zealot-Herb and the ideological and fact challenged like-minded are actually carrying the water for powerful business interests who oppose legislative action on the matter, not because they actually disbelieve the scientific consensus, but because addressing it can prove expensive. If one were paying attention this isn't exactly difficult to discern.
But to recap: That isn't even what the article he posted is about. He probably thought it was, though. LOL.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 03:44 PM # -
Fact is, littlesongs, Climategate and the dubious claims of anti-business interests are now far more scandalous than Watergate.
And if they're smart, the left will jettison both the massage-hungry Mr. Gore and carbon spewing Robert Kennedy Jr. as spokespersons. Don't hold your breath.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 04:17 PM # -
OMG LOL
Thank you for proving my point, Zealot-Herb.
Hey! The Earth is flat! Here's a website, ergo I'm correct!
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 04:26 PM # -
Herb, you obviously did not read the article in your original post. You also did not read any of the non-partisan reports in the links I provided. Is it too much trouble for you to skim a little before jumping to conclusions? A rational discussion is impossible without facts and focus.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 04:42 PM # -
Recent observations have shown that the Northwest Passage is becoming more navigable due to melting of polar ice. See:
- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMYTC13J6F_index_0.html
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6995999.stm
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6999078.stm
The above are the sources used by the Wikipedia Article on the Northwest Passage to back up claims of increased navigability. Now, I like to drive cars, to have barbecues, to sit around campfires, and to have cheap bus fares as much as Herb or anybody else. If you will pardon the pun, Herb, I think that you are treading on thin ice with your claims of science being manipulated for the sake of a political agenda.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 04:49 PM # -
littlesongs & Alfredo_T, with all due respect.
Even if I were to grant you that global warming is fact, please prove that
1. It is caused by man.
2. Mankind's behaviour modification would make any significant difference.
3. Global warming is not merely part of a larger weather cycle.Sometimes chicken little is wrong.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:17 PM # -
Herb, you still haven't clicked on the links.
Missing asked a very important question.
Alfredo and I shared some research to help you answer it.
Please take the time to study the topic at hand and share your opinions afterward.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:22 PM # -
Littlesongs, still with all due respect.
If you read my post, you'd realize that if global warming is not induced by man, and/or not significantly changeable, then it's largely a moot point.
If global warming is a weather cycle, we'll all be worrying about global cooling before long again, like scientists predicted a decade or two ago.
And along with those who predict problems with global warming, growing tomatoes in Siberia is a nifty side benefit.
In the meanwhile, watch your pocketbook and freedoms, my friend.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:31 PM # -
Take a look at the first three pages of the Yale University paper that was linked above ( http://environment.yale.edu/climate/files/IntlPublicOpinion.pdf ). It provides a very concise summary of the study of this phenomenon. The key observation (dubbed the Keeling Curve) is that the carbon dioxide levels are going up, leading to the conclusion that carbon dioxide is being produced as a faster rate than the oceans are able to absorb it. This assumes, of course, that the ability of the oceans to absorb carbon dioxide has stayed relatively constant over the last few hundred years. Note that most of the top climate experts agree with the methods and conclusions outlined here. At least, do you not agree that there is a pollution problem?
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:32 PM # -
Herb, every single study and report that I posted was focused on National Security.
With all due respect, effort has been made on your behalf to provide non-biased information.
If you finish up what we have provided and still have questions, feel free to ask for more data.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:39 PM # -
I'd like to irradiate Herb's brain in one of those ozone holes that used to roam the poles before we took action and reversed the conditions of that man-made phenomena. Because of our actions, its getting harder and harder to find an ozone hole these days so I guess I'll have to use a microwave oven instead.
A plate of Offal le Herb marinated with vinegar anyone?
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:51 PM # -
"...its getting harder and harder to find an ozone hole these days..."
And that is why we have global warming.
They need to open up that hole and let some of the heat out!
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 05:58 PM # -
Why can't somebody invent a car that runs on the excess heat?
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 06:13 PM # -
Herb will NEVER get it. Remember he thought Nixon was a good Prez.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 06:49 PM # -
Zealot-Herb only seeks out information that supports a viewpoint he already holds and discards the rest no matter how voluminous and utterly incontravertable.
There is no real debate on the matter among any respected scientists and climatologists. None. (Except in political, conservative loon circles. And guess who's behind that website super-genius posted?)
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 07:40 PM # -
What do you expect from someone who believes god is real yet science is fake?
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 08:10 PM # -
Littlesongs, I happen to share a different view than that found at
http://www.pewclimate.org/docUploads/national-security-implications-memo-august2009.pdfThe premises and analysis on a piece like this are based on a great deal of conjecture, while assuming what plenty deem is improbable. Is such a scenario impossible? No. But I'm more concerned with Mr. Obama's trashing our country than what might conceivably happen in a few decades, or more, if ever.
Follow the money...and carbon credits, my friend.
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 08:45 PM # -
Yes, growing tomatoes in Siberia is a side benefit...However..
Thawing out the permafrost in Siberia might also create another side benefit too,,,,LIKE release of METHANE GAS....which could be ingnited to Deep Fry all those tomatoes...and we could have a nice barbeque too....Planet wide after a time...if enough of that gas is evolved into the atmosphere...
Kennewickman NOT looking forward to such scenarios...I think we need to keep the permafrost in Siberia thick enough to keep a lid on the Methane releases...
Posted on December 6, 2010 - 09:06 PM # -
Follow the money...
I did and I found out that most of it leads me to wealthy extreme righties that the GOP taps 99.875% of the time they need help.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 01:35 AM # -
I see kennewickman has a grasp on the consequences of global warning . . . I wonder what he thinks of the recent "uncorking" of a massive glacier in Antarctica?
(Uncorking occurs when the end of melting glacier weakens the surrounding surface and it gives away and the entire glacier slides into the sea in a matter of days instead of centuries. If we've reached a tipping point and enough of these glaciers (in Greenland and Antarctica) start uncorking we can be rid of that pesky state Florida within our lifetimes instead of a century. Toss a couple ice cubes in a full glass of water on a map of Florida for a demonstration of this effect!)
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 02:46 AM # -
I'm going to say it was really warm this year...
http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/environment/this-year-may-be-one-of-the-hottest-on-record
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 03:17 AM # -
I'm going to say it was really warm this year...
It's not going to matter Trix, the deniers have their heads in their refridgerators -- likely a Chinese made one.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 03:40 AM # -
Ya, we could have a problem with melting glaciers to fast. It happened once that we know of...when something knocked loose the ice in Canada about 15 thousand years ago and created another mini ice age..and that massive ice release casused the North Atlantic ocean to cool quickly , which in turn caused deep welling which caused the Gulf Stream to shut off, which caused North America and Europe to cool off, which caused another Ice Age..which lasted about 2 thousand years...and gets us to NOW.
So yes, such things can cause CLIMATE CHANGE...
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 11:32 AM # -
How did that happen without human caused pollution??
Someone tell Algore!
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 01:52 PM # -
Follow the money? That path would lead you directly to the doorstep of the biggest polluters who stand to make the most money by denying climate change.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 02:47 PM # -
What they are denying is that WE are causing it...so ergo they say WE cant do anything to stop it....so business as usual...as far as *they* are concerned.
And the question is...whether or not we are causing it or partially causing it...CAN we really do anything to stop it, slow it down...whatever??/...slow it down would be nice...I think...but is it possible, really ???
And then the oppostion says that all the changes will ruin OUR economy ,our way of life...It will ruin their profits...their wealth..and they say then it will ruin everybody's well being..
*trickle down economic disaster *...so they say...
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 04:04 PM # -
Anyone ever think that this whole thing might be nature's way of altering the Earth to what she wants? Ie: water in the Sahara, warmer Willamette Valley, less ice, less land, less needs?
Man is really very insignificant in the grand scheme of the Earth and to be so presumptous as to think that WE can make a dent in this good old Earth is not only arrogant, it's downright stupid.
PS: the geniuses at the UN Copenhagen meetings last year said that the WHOLE EARTH'S temperature (which I still haven't figured out how you do that) would be the warmest on record (how far back does the record go?) would be 14.58 C. Then, at Cancun this month, the same report was altered slightly to say 14.52 C as they realized they had missed the mark by a bit and now it seems we are actually cooler than that in 2010.
Yea.......when this is an exact science, please come back to the table.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/dec/03/wikileaks-us-manipulated-climate-accordWhen you have other countries basically holding America hostage over MONEY, which is really what the whole "climate change, global warming, global cooling, climate control" issue is all about, then you see that this IS man made. Man made as in the oldest profession on earth, sleeping with someone for money.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 04:19 PM # -
"And then the oppostion says that all the changes will ruin OUR economy ,our way of life...It will ruin their profits...their wealth..and they say then it will ruin everybody's well being.."
While we are speaking of conspiracies to take down the global system (wikileaks) this can also be seen similarly as a conspiracy by left leaning groups, the same ones that side with Assange, to take down what they see as an evil and corrupt part of our society and bring us back to a simple, agrarian, anarchist if you will, world view.
This and wiki leaks is about taking down the establishment, whether that be big oil, big banks, big military, etc...
Coincidence?
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 04:23 PM # -
Spot on, Dodger.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 04:42 PM # -
Vit you hit the nail on the head and if you follow it close enough you'll find someone putting money in a CONers pocket or millions of CONers pockets.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 05:13 PM # -
"Anyone ever think that this whole thing might be nature's way of altering the Earth to what she wants? "
I'm sure there are those that do think that, but it's not possible for several reasons.
One: The carbon cycle. I don't care what you personally believe about the carbon cycle. It's accepted as fact by 99.9% of science including those far more versed in the topic than you or me. BTW, you can't change gravity, either. You can tinker with overcoming both, but that doesn't make them non-existent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle
Two: There is no question that the concentration of carbon dioxide shown in Figure 1 has been increasing exponentially for almost 50 years now. Even the skeptics concur this is happening.
http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-global-warming/
Three: As life on earth flourishes, we create more pollution than we can "process" or recycle. This in itself is a problem for the future. Whether you believe it contributes to ozone depletion is not the point, rather the fact that if you have a dog and don't clean up the poop, your house and yard will stink.
I know it's fashionable for some to argue the "existence" of global climate phenomena and would prefer to think it's all part of God's plan. Rubbish (no pun intended). The growth of industry is young in comparison to the life of the planet. Yes, there were ice ages and dinosaurs and floods and a whole host of natural phenomenon that are part of the history. But to think that we as the principle mechanics of the planet's systems for the last 4 thousand years or so have not created an out of control monster of environmental disservice is not only irresponsible (especially if you are a parent telling your children there is no such thing) but in fact laughable.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 05:20 PM # -
"Anyone ever think that this whole thing might be nature's way of altering the Earth to what she wants?
Mother Earth wants carbon monoxide levels to go up? Seriously? You said that....
WOW!
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 05:28 PM # -
I'm in full agreement with cleaning up our poop.
I just don't believe we need to tear down civilization as we know it or engage in extortion/bribery to get the job done.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 05:30 PM # -
We did that in Iraq and you were good for that!
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 05:42 PM # -
Noparty is here too? Here? Know it all Nazi.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 06:46 PM # -
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....and if you follow it close enough you'll find someone putting money in a POLITICIAN's pocket or millions of POLITICIAN's pockets.
There. I fixed it for you.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 09:01 PM # -
....and if you follow it close enough you'll find someone putting money in MOST GOPers pocket or millions of GOPers pockets.
Thanks! I fixed it for you AGAIN!
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 09:07 PM # -
Yeah, if that's what you want to believe.
To quote Lowell George;
Roll another one
Just like the other one
You've been hangin on to it
And I sure would like a hitDon't bogart that joint, my friend
Pass it over to me
Don't bogart that joint, my friend
Pass it over to meEven though he didn't write it, IMHO Little Feat's version was the best!
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 09:17 PM # -
Noparty dont need a J, he's got a corner on the Kool Aid market.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 09:24 PM # -
I think planets are living things. Corrections are plausible things.
...then again, we've got George Carlin and "earth plus plastic" to think about. (man, I miss that guy big)
What occurs to me is sustainability. The easy pickings always come at a cost, the scale never matters. So, we would be smart to just transition on to the lower impact energy sources ASAP. At the least, it's a key adaptation that will serve us well as changes do occur.
(and I absolutely believe changes will occur)
Saving some of the easy stuff for tough times isn't a bad move, and lowering our footprint as a species makes a hell of a lot of sense from a cost and livability perspective, if nothing else.
So, I'm perfectly fine with the efforts to encourage these things, and if the idea of climate change is what triggers it, fine. Living small is a valuable thing. It might be the thing that keeps some of us alive, and it sure was when I was a kid at times.
Too many people live way too large. That's not sustainable, and it's simply not necessary.
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 09:50 PM # -
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/253376
Posted on December 7, 2010 - 10:18 PM #
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