Dr. Howard Dean: Move The Mosque(90 posts)
Dr. Dean is poorly informed. He doesn't seem to understand that the community center in an existing building, a former Burlington Coat Factory (which will have mosque facilities inside of it, like a hospital might have a temple or chapel, along with a basketball court, etc.) isn't going to be built adjacent to ground zero near the two churches that are already there. It will open in a building a few blocks away from the the WTC site. Nor will it have a minaret or any distinguishing feature on the outside.
There have been American Muslims in that run-down neighborhood for a long time already. What's wrong with giving them a community center where they can also worship if needed? Why do we somehow blame American Muslims for 9/11 or pretend they had any involvement in it at all?
Isn't denying this group their right to open such a building for Muslims disrespectful of the American Muslims who died on 9/11? Why do we not care about them?Posted on August 18, 2010 - 10:14 PM #
Dr. Dean is wrong on this one.
And for once your 'democrat hypocrisy' tag is appropriate. Dean is being hypocritical for claiming to adhere to Democratic principles while opposing this mosque.Posted on August 18, 2010 - 10:21 PM #
I like Howard Dean, although he can be a real loose cannon sometimes. In this case I agree with Russell Simmons (a Republican!) who told Larry King that if the Islamic center's critics had sought a compromise back when the plans were first unveiled, their request would have been reasonable. Now it's too late -- the issue has become so public and so polarized that those of us who truly believe in religious freedom have no choice but to support its construction unconditionally. Moving or scrapping the center now in response to political pressure would be a tremendous propaganda victory for Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups whose survival and growth depend on promulgating the idea that the U.S. is at war with Islam. Don't forget, we still have troops in harm's way in predominantly Muslim countries. Do we really want to make life more dangerous for these brave men and women than it already is?Posted on August 18, 2010 - 10:37 PM #
Mr. Dean is wrong 99.875% of the time end of story.Posted on August 18, 2010 - 11:15 PM #
Well well...so one of your own agrees the Mosque should be moved and suddenly he is wrong 99.875% of the time.
I dont remember any of you saying that when he was running for office.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 08:43 AM #
Yeah, he's off the rails on this one, just thinking about election politics.
Truth is, President Obama nailed it the first time. We are a nation of tolerance, and equality. They should build it, as planned, where planned.
Having a religious study center, which isn't quite a mosque (where the hell did that come from?), there is a fine idea, and an expression of who we are.
If it's moved, or we make a big deal out of it, we validate Bin Laden, and his desire to start holy wars.
All of this "We are a Christian Nation" shit, is building up for a fight against "Islamic Nations", like some my book is better than your book pissing match.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 08:56 AM #
I like Dean a lot. He's not wrong too much of the time, and his strategic ideas really did us a lot of good.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 08:57 AM #
I am against any religion building anything on Ground Zero (or anywhere for the matter) Its time to stop living in the dark ages and realize that religion is a farce.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 08:59 AM #
Not gonna happen.
Because we, as a species, don't know our origins for sure, religion is an artifact of that. We either step up and deal with one another as equal peers in these things, or we actually do return to the dark ages, where equality under the law was a "new" idea at the time.
I'm not religious. I don't even like religion all that much.
The vast majority of people do, and they've got a clear right to worship.
Truth is, this is yet another impossible wedge issue to GOTV, nothing more.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 09:02 AM #
No "religion" is building anything *ON* Ground Zero, you fool. A Muslim group is opening a community center/cultural center a few blocks away from the site in a building that is now an abandoned old Burlington Coat Factory. The new community center - which won't even have a view of the former WTC site - will have to compete with a McDonalds and at least one strip club in the area for its members' attention.
Please do read at least one new story about the topic before commenting about it.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 09:04 AM #
fine. I am against a Muslim group opening up a "community center/cultural center" as you call it anywhere near there. feel better?
Put up a 7-11. They all seem to own them anyway. let them meet near the slurpee machine.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 09:10 AM #
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The very fact that this is an issue is a sure sign that the terrorists ARE winning the war. In a free country like ours, this shouldn't be an issue.
And let me be straight. I don't like religion. All of them. I'd prefer not to see churches, mosques, etc built anywhere. However, if the project meets local zoning standards, then what right does the government have to tell a particular religion that they can't build what they want? And it's not even at ground zero, it's a few blocks away.
I don't ever EVER want to hear a conservative talking about upholding the Constitution because clearly they don't understand the basics of the First Amendment.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 10:11 AM #
ES, your entire last post proves you are not just against a Muslim community center, you are against Muslims, period. Thanks for the clarification on your position.
And should I also assume you love the American Constitution? I thought so...Posted on August 19, 2010 - 10:17 AM #
Error Supply is by his own words an ignorant bigot.
I thougt about using facts, reason, and logic to dismantle his various bleatings and then realized such an exercsise would be pointless both for the reason first outlined and made abunduntly clear by his own words.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 10:58 AM #
Posted on August 19, 2010 - 11:33 AM #
No one is trying to build a mosque (or Islamic community center or anything else) on public land, Broadway. Please try to understand the important difference between putting crosses on public land and opening a religious center in a privately-owned building.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 11:44 AM #
It amazes me the stupidity we see from the right wing. I really do believe that the hallmark of conservatism these days is ignorance.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 12:25 PM #
Yep, and it's almost like they're PROUD of their stupidity. Pathetic.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 12:40 PM #
Along with democrat leaders Dr. Howard Dean and Harry Reid, the majority of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.
Leftists on this board are both out of touch and in the minority.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 01:38 PM #
ES, they are ALREADY having religious services in the current building, and have been for a while. Why would a new building make any difference?
Although it doesn't excuse you from being a bigot, I would support, however, reducing the amount of tax exempts ALL Churches can claim.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 01:40 PM #
I think "leftists" on this board, who actually vary all over the map politically, are some well grounded, smart Americans, who you should be so lucky to have a regular dialog with HD.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 02:03 PM #
Herb, do you support the First Amendment? It appears to me you don't.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 02:17 PM #
Herb: Along with democrat leaders Dr. Howard Dean and Harry Reid, the majority of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.
From what I have been hearing, the "majority of Americans" are at first poorly informed about what's really been proposed in lower Manhattan. You can even see it on other posts on this board: some people seem to think an actual mosque will be built *ON* the Ground Zero site. Others think a mosque with a menacing-looking minaret will be built across the street from the site. It seems many have no idea the "mosque" is really a community center a few blocks away, in an old abandoned Burlington Coat Factory, in a run-down area that is such "sacred" ground that the city has allowed a strip club and McDonalds, among other things, to be built nearby.
And, of course, there's this unfortunate idea that somehow al Qaeda and bin Laden were *MAINSTREAM* representatives of Islam, whereas they were really extreme radicals in the sense that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church are extreme radicals who in no way represent the views of most Christians. If someone were going to build another Christian church (there are already two) near Ground Zero, would we immediately think of Fred Phelps and how offensive it is to build a "god hates fags" monument to a guy who protests at the funerals of American veterans? Of course not.
This kind of ignorance about and fear of the "other" is hardly new in America. A hundred plus years ago, Catholics were "the other" and were attacked by groups like the Ku Klux Klan; today eight of the nine Supreme Court justices are Catholic. Perhaps in a hundred years eight of the nine justices will be Muslims, and the people of 2110 will shudder at the ignorance of people in 2010?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 02:22 PM #
Speaking of Justices, I wonder what Scallia and his crew would have to say? They are, after all, strict Constitutionalists right?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 02:27 PM #
"Along with democrat leaders Dr. Howard Dean and Harry Reid, the majority of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero."
Do you think this construction should be stopped by law and do you mistrust Muslims as the Time article suggests?
Also, do you believe our country should abandon the Republic concept and convert to a straight democracy? Run everything by public opinion polls?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 03:33 PM #
>>understand the important
well blow me fiddlesticks...just don't see the "importance"
was ok for dozens of years...like prayer in schools...Posted on August 19, 2010 - 03:39 PM #
"Separate but equal" treatment of blacks was "OK" for dozens of years too. Should we bring that back too?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 03:40 PM #
'...the "majority of Americans" are at first poorly informed about what's really been proposed in lower Manhattan.'
With all due respect, this kind of talking down the electorate is why the democrats are in real trouble and seriously looking at a major loss of power.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 03:44 PM #
Yeah, Herb, you were so right in 2006 and 2008 about the permanent Republican majority we all had to be ready to accept. I guess talking down to the uninformed masses was bad strategy those years too, huh? Or could it be that voters in 2010 have unrealistic expectations about a quick economic recovery from a financial meltdown and will punish the party in power no matter what?
And I notice you didn't disagree with me about so many people being uninformed. Republicans no doubt are the most uninformed of any group, given that 1/3 of them think our Christian president is in fact a Muslim! Then again, if all you watch is a steady diet of Fox News propaganda, why should we be surprised?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 03:56 PM #
I'd be cranky too, were I a democrat right now.
The backlash against this administration is compelling in its ferocity and breadth.
As Mr. Lincoln said, you can't fool all the people all the time. Americans thought they were getting something different from this president.
Not unprecedented debt, minions who blame America first, announcing to our enemies a timetable for withdrawing soldiers, lawsuits against an American state which seeks to protect its borders and citizenry because the feds won't, plus a world apology tour and leftist bent that makes Mr. Clinton look conservative.
I personally hope the democrats DON'T catch a clue and continue to rile the American voter. That way there will be even greater change come November.
And feel free to provide us with the name of liberals with 100% accuracy in calling elections. The ones eating their words come Autumn know who they are.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 04:24 PM #
So there are lots of liberals now proudly predicting big Democratic victories this fall, Herb? Who exactly?
The "unprecedented debt" was inherited from George Bush. And the "leftist bent" that has defended the Defense of Marriage Act, refused to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell, refused to fight for single payer health care, and ramped up US troops in Afghanistan has pissed off a lot more liberals than conservatives. Only an uninformed, partisan tool believes Barack Obama has been governing as some sort of left-wing liberal.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 04:29 PM #
The law, the facts, and the U.S. constitution are 100% on the side of the President in this instance.
You have ignorance, xenophobia, misinformation, religious bias, and racism on your side. While these are powerful tools they ultimately, and virtually always, end up crumbling under the weight of truth. Sadly, such things can often take longer than many of us would like. I have innumerable historical precedents backing up both of these assertions.
That a majority of Americans in a poll have reflexively co-signed on the "Muslims are terrorists" meme entirely propagated by your ilk in no way undermines the basic facts of the situation. Which are entirely at odds with your statements.
On a sidebar I find it ironic you only choose to highlight poll information, or any information for that matter, which simply reinforces a belief you already held. At one time a majority of Americans opposed health care reform. And that opposition was entirely powered by fear and misinformation bleating from the conservatives. Now that a majority of Americans no longer hold that view, because...you know...the GOP's claims were provably untrue nonsense, I see few instances of your acknowledging the poll data no longer supports your contrarian position.
Back to the topic at hand: You either support the U.S. Constitution and its guarantees of freedom of religion or you do not. Yours and others shallow rationalizations and logical contortions can in no way undermine the basic fact that you are arguing such protections only extend to those who happen to share your own religion or viewpoint.
Your position on this matter is morally and ethically reprehensible.
P.S. Way to avoid dealing with every point Andrew (and others) have raised that entirely dispell your assertions through facts that can be independently verified as 100% true. You prove over and over again you often have no idea what you're talking about; but rarely with such myopic panache.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:00 PM #
'You have ignorance, xenophobia, misinformation, religious bias, and racism on your side.'
Again: your opinion is at odds with a decided majority of the American people.
Your view is not held by most Americans and the present administration appears unwilling to back off their decidedly unpopular, leftist agenda.
With all due respect, democrats are having a difficult time dealing with changes forthcoming and need to either make adjustments or be prepared for the outcome.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:10 PM #
Way to avoid the issues again, Zealot-Herb.
Facts are non partisan. Try looking some up.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:17 PM #
Herb is wise enough to know the facts aren't on his side, so he won't engage in factual responses without looking even more silly.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:30 PM #
Herb, you must be right wing preacher as evidenced by the fear you promote.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:31 PM #
Herb, sometimes "the electorate" deserves and needs a little talking down.
That tends to happen when it's matter of discrimination, racism, bigotry, theocracy, misinformation. We elect leaders to do this for us, because it is a necessary thing.
When Bush needed to do that, he did. And an awful lot of us sucked it up, and supported the actions. We got a solid dose of fear and lies, exploited to render very poor national policy, ending lives, war, and a lot of other ugly things, up to and including the massive mess, the work on which is currently being obstructed by the same liars we felt, by a very solid majority, well worth replacing.
Nothing has changed. They are still worth replacing, and the only thing keeping that from being an absolute reality is more lies and fear, both of which have been seen here regularly, due to your entertaining contributions as of late.
(did you get the memo man? seriously! Dude!)
Obama is not progressive, nor even particularly liberal. This has the artifact of making it really easy to see just who is the tool, and who is not.
If you hear people saying, "liberal, socialist, etc..." that person is a tool, period. Sorry folks, but that's reality.
On the other hand, if you hear people saying they are pissed over some specific issue, chances are, they are not a tool, and just want stuff to work better like the vast majority of us do. We differ on that, and that's just civics.
From what I can tell, Obama is a moderate, with some leanings here and there that are clearly one direction or another. Frankly, I think he's right on IP matters, somewhat moderate on a lot of things, and not left on much at all.
And, given where we were, that's not unrealistic to expect such a President would be elected, given our choices, and the overall state of the nation.
And Herb, no matter what you claim to be doing here, you've never once actually suggested what a positive solution would be, only that the current momentum is negative.
This implies that the ass clowns that hosed the nation would some how be a good call now, despite all the damage.
Care to support that implication, or are you just bashing, because it's better to live in the suckage, not having to admit your guys kicked you in the sack, than it is to understand that "those leftists" might actually be good for the nation?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 05:39 PM #
One would think a steady diet of crow would make one wiser, but I guess not.Posted on August 19, 2010 - 06:21 PM #
Herb, since you love to cite "majority opinion" as evidence of fact, can we conclude you are in fact a twit since the majority of posters on this board share that opinion?Posted on August 19, 2010 - 10:25 PM #
+10Posted on August 19, 2010 - 10:31 PM #
So majority must be correct and obeyed... so any biblical commandment that the majority ignores must be correct and obeyed... so... mandatory premarital sexual relations should be legislating into law... the majority support it by their self-reported actions (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2007/01/29/PRH-Vol-122-Finer.pdf)
... 75% of adults by age of 20 reported having premarital sex... so it should be the law.
HD... when are you going to work for an initiative to require Oregon to promote premarital sex...the majority must be obeyed!!!Posted on August 19, 2010 - 11:06 PM #
Howard Dean is wrong. It is not the first time and it will not be the last.
They could build a mosque inside the new tower and it would not make a difference to the terrorists. Claiming that 9/11 was sponsored by the Muslim religion is a stubborn denial of the facts. People of every background were killed by political extremists who hid their agenda behind faith.
It also seems like the majority of people who are most upset about the location of this one community center have never been to New York City. If they had, these folks would know that there are dozens of churches and places of worship within walking distance of ground zero.
Where was the anger when the bodies of hundreds of victims were being dumped out in the Fresh Kills landfill? Where was the dissent when the hole was left open so that it could be used as a backdrop for campaign commercials? Where was the compassion for the rescuers who fell ill and perished?
This is just another case of manufactured outrage by people who should know better.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 08:04 AM #
Before leftists on this board take issue with my view on the mosque, which is with the majority of Americans, they better get their own house in order.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 08:44 AM #
Democrats are not in lockstep like the Republicans are. And you have no freaking idea what the majority of Americans believe. All you know is what the majority of people who chose to participate in a poll think at the moment they are called on the phone. Delusion reigns.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 08:52 AM #
'All you know is what the majority of people who chose to participate in a poll think at the moment they are called on the phone. Delusion reigns.'
Continue talking down the electorate.
If you think the country's current mood is negative on democrats, see what adding even more loads of arrogance will do for the left's fast-sinking ship.
The smarter rats have already begun to jump.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 09:11 AM #
You are indeed funny Herb, you make my day.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 09:15 AM #
Herb, why are Republicans so much less popular than Democrats today in America? I see you completely ignored my thread on this...Posted on August 20, 2010 - 09:51 AM #
Democrats are more popular because the masses prefer warm fuzzy platitudes and free government money/programs over reality.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 10:17 AM #
"Run everything by public opinion polls?"
Not by polls, but I wouldn't be opposed to them putting more things up for a vote.
ANY tax increase should be voted on. If the majority says yes, then we go with it, if no, then the body that wants the tax increase has to deal with it. To be fair, I'd say vote on tax cuts too.
Tolls on the new (or the existing) bridge(s)? Put it up to vote.
Light Rail on the new bridge? Vote on it.
Sales tax increase for ???, vote on it.
Obamacare? Vote on it.
Let the people of the US decide on things that are going to affect them.
Set it up for maybe 4 or 5 votes a year and let the politicians work around that schedule for the stuff they want to do.Posted on August 20, 2010 - 11:25 AM #
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