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Catholics following doctrine strictly a shrinking minority

(59 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Andy_brown
  • Latest reply from Andy_brown

  1. Andy_brown

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    Posts: 4,657

    The Catholic Church wrote their own doctrine. They wrote their own "bible." They are infested with sexual predators in the priesthood. When are they going to wake up.

    As the twenty-first century begins, the Catholic Church finds itself in the midst of turmoil and crisis. Though the recent sex scandals are a significant setback for the Church, the despicable acts of a few bad priests have magnified a broader problem. Most American Catholics increasingly put more faith in society's values than they do in the Church's values. Many Americans still identify themselves as Catholics. However, the spirit of Catholicism is rarely found in contemporary American society. In the twilight of his life, Pope John Paul II faces enormous challenges and overwhelming pressure. The Catholic Church has seemingly lost its spiritually-transforming effect in the United States and throughout the modern world. The crisis is relatively clear-cut: There is a basic lack of commitment among Catholics to the teachings of the Church. Specific hot-button topics can illustrate this point. However, the crisis must be analyzed from a more general perspective in order to fully grasp the real problems. Americans simply put more faith in society's values than they do in the Church's values.

    The issues of birth control and abortion can be used to illustrate the basic lack of commitment among Catholics to the teachings of the Church.

    http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article50.htm

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 02:22 PM #
  2. Mrs.Merkin

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    "the despicable acts of a few bad priests..."

    Uh huh. Just a few.

    Warning: PopeTroll Bait! How long can he resist before caving in to his urges yet again? Any bets?

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 03:32 PM #
  3. The Church is much less infested with sexual predators than the public school system. But that justifies neither institution and condemns neither institution. People fail.

    The Church does stand for justice for all from the moment of conception until natural death, in sharp contrast to the secualar world which sees the unborn as disposable.

    From the article:

    Despite its many positive facets, the United States is not a perfect or ideal country. From slavery to Columbine, the American way of life has proven to be full of inadequacies and contradictions. The United States is a powerful and successful country. However, as Woodrow Wilson observed once, “There has been something cold, and heartless, and inhuman in our desire to succeed and be great.” The de-humanization that often accompanies American ideals is the greatest flaw of the American way of life. At the heart of Catholicism is an emphasis on humanity. By outlawing abortion and birth control, the Catholic Church does not intend to limit and restrict people. Instead, the Church wants to free people, so that they can experience the fullness of humanity. However, most American Catholics fail to fully grasp this concept of freedom, and understand freedom more in the context of the American way of life. Understandably, happiness and success sound better to most people than does freedom to fully experience humanity.

    The Church should not attempt to compete with the American way of life. This crisis is not a contest to see which option is better. Nor can the Church adopt the American way of life as its philosophy. The Church should stay committed to its teachings and doctrines, even if its members are not. Perhaps the best option for the Catholic Church is to emphasize values that the American way of life cannot provide for American Catholics. Success is fleeting and happiness is elusive. Jesus does not promise His followers either in the Gospel. However, Jesus does promise peace and courage. By following the way of Jesus, people can experience the fullness of life—the ups and the downs, the happiness and the sorrow, the joy and the suffering—with grace and dignity. By following Church teachings, American Catholics can make peace and courage a reality in their lives.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:37 PM #
  4. Andrew

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    F&B: The Church is much less infested with sexual predators than the public school system.

    You miss the point. Sexual predators are not protected by the public school system; when they are found out, they are prosecuted. By contrast, the Catholic Church protected them for decades, hid their crimes, and kept them in their jobs.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:45 PM #
  5. Sexual predators HAVE been protected by some in the school system. They have been moved around too.

    Nobody in the Church excuses what those bad priests did, nor do they excuse those who sheilded them. But there is now a system to prevent it from happening again.

    What is evil is when those on the outside attack good Catholics and tar them with the same brush they do the sexual predators.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:49 PM #
  6. Brianl

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    Boy howdy, when you break Lent, you do it in style.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:55 PM #
  7. skeptical

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    Catholics are pretty good about tarring and feathering themselves without any help at all from non-Catholics.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:56 PM #
  8. duxrule

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    "Nobody in the Church excuses what those bad priests did, nor do they excuse those who sheilded them."

    NOW, perhaps. How do you account for the DECADES of abuse prior to that?

    Added: I'd also like to see an updated piece like this, not one that's nearly ten years old. I'd contend that this might not accurately reflect the current state of affairs in the church.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 04:57 PM #
  9. Andy_brown

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    So, you see, even the Catholic web sites like catholicplanet.com recognize what F&BS doesn't.
    Next to nobody holds Catholic doctrine on high, anymore. The rest, i.e. the details, is irrelevant.

    Religion (with a capital R) is dying, although religion (with a lower case r) will survive.

    You don't need to be a zealot of any religion to believe in God, or your local tomato plant.
    The holier than thou types, the ones that are left, are indeed a shrinking minority.

    Yes, a trolling post to show that F&B is a hypocrite. His fake religiousness is just that, fake.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 05:05 PM #
  10. Amus

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    Posts: 2,105

    He's on a mission from God!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZKDel9N0

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 05:08 PM #
  11. Practicing Catholics revere their religion, as do practicing Jews, practicing Muslims, and practicing Hindus.

    But I can only speak for Catholicism. I've seen it from the outside and inside. It's a beautiful faith, once you understand it and live it.

    I wonder why so many attack it and say such hateful things about it. I suspect it's not because of the bad things some bad Catholics have done, but because of the inconvenient Truths it preaches.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 05:23 PM #
  12. Andy_brown

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    "I wonder why so many attack it"

    The hypocrisy clearly demonstrated by their actions.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 05:47 PM #
  13. duxrule

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    "I suspect it's not because of the bad things some bad Catholics have done, but because of the inconvenient Truths it preaches."

    Nice rationalization.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 05:48 PM #
  14. It's mostly that we stand in opposition to the secular sacrament of abortion.

    You preach compassion, yet slaughter the innocent by the millions for the sake of convenience.

    Who really are the hypocrites here?

    You would have us paying for your abortions in addition to forcing us to give you free contraception. Your tyrant is striving to mold us into his image and is stepping all over religious freedom, but in your blind hatred and bigotry, you can't see the evil and applaud it.

    But we'll fight it and are fighting it. There are more who love the Church Doctrine and Sacraments than you realize.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 06:03 PM #
  15. Skybill9

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    "He's on a mission from God!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZKDel9N0"

    That's in my top 5 all time favorite movies!

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 07:23 PM #
  16. Mrs.Merkin

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    OK, the truth comes out:

    "It's mostly that we stand in opposition to the secular sacrament of abortion."

    That's the only true reason that F'n PopeTroll IS Catholic: abortion.

    And he's a crappy creepy Catholic at that.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 08:06 PM #
  17. Unfortunately we dwell on the negative here.

    I converted to Catholicism ultimately because of my fascination with and final acceptance of the doctrine of "transubstantiation."

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 08:08 PM #
  18. Mrs.Merkin

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    Posts: 1,362

    Liar.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 08:11 PM #
  19. You weren't there. I was.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 08:19 PM #
  20. missing_kskd

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    Just like I said, he will use public schools just like abortion to distract from the church and it's abuses.

    Anytime you see those two topics come from F&B, just know it's a hand wave away from some ugly he would rather not deal with.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 09:07 PM #
  21. No, MK, we KNOW about the "abuses." The point is that that is not what the Church is.

    We know there is ugliness and sin among Catholics. The Church is a hospital for sinners.

    But that there are sinners in the Church is not why she is hated by your ilk. It is because of the stance against your golden calves of abortion and contraception.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 09:12 PM #
  22. edust1958

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    Mrs Merkin... with respect... I am not sure it is fair to question anyone's stated reason for choosing the format of their worship and celebration of the relationship with God...

    I find it pretty deep if transubstantiation was key selection criterion for fairandbalanced. It does pretty much exclude all other Christian churches. IMO that decision criterion would provide some great fodder for a psychologist's couch... of course, I am not a psychologist.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 09:19 PM #
  23. missing_kskd

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    Where did you see hate?

    A lot of us don't like the church attempting to make our choices for us, when we've not submitted to it's authority.

    Now, if somebody is a dumb ass and wants to do that, great! They can and should have their choices made for them, until such time as they wise up, but that's just me.

    I think anyone buying into that shit, given the LONG history of atrocities, abuses and corruption is a complete idiot. Again though, that's just me.

    So there isn't any hate in there at all, just complete disregard. I don't see any value there, and am well within my rights to say that, and the beauty is, I don't have to go and find some other ugly thing to distract with like you do, because I'm not trying to paint a pretty picture with an ugly turd, like you are.

    See how that works?

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 09:22 PM #
  24. I found this article intriguing: Apologies for not posting it via a link.

    ----------------------------

    Life does NOT begin at conception. Presidential candidate Rick Santorum likes to say that he doesn't BELIEVE that life begins at conception - he KNOWS it begins at conception. And his radical view on this and on contraception in general reminds me of the quote by Mark Twain. "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

    Life, of course, begins long BEFORE conception. The egg that eventually became Rick Santorum was ALIVE and well in his mother's ovary before SHE was born... That tiny, LIVING cell had to go through critical developmental changes before it would even be ready to be fertilized at conception. Then it had to go through many additional essential developmental stages after conception before Rick would become a living, breathing, thinking, human being.

    Some will say that fertilization is THE critical step that forms a unique individual human. But we know that is also not true. It is not uncommon for a developing, fertilized egg to divide for awhile and then split completely into two separate blastocysts, which go on to each become separate unique individuals even though they share the same DNA. Anyone who has known identical twins, knows that they are not the "same." Something AFTER conception makes them unique individuals.

    There are a myriad of essential developmental changes that the embryo MUST go through in order to survive. This tiny little ball of cells has to fold and refold over and over like a wonderfully elegant origami project in order to even get to the stage where it can START to develop a nervous system and a brain, heart, lungs, limbs and other organs that we recognize as human traits. If the fetus is female, the ovaries will develop, before birth, with the rudimentary eggs that will eventually become the next generation, but only if EVERY developmental stage, including fertilization, comes to pass.

    The real ethical question that is being posed is not when does life begin, but when does personhood begin? When do we recognize a developing embryo or fetus to have full Human Rights?

    Now, Mr. Santorum wants to prohibit people from using birth control because he has drawn his line in the sand at fertilization. But that is a radical notion. Hormonal birth control (the "pill") and the IUD work by multiple mechanisms, one of which is to block the implantation of a fertilized egg, thereby killing it. The implications of Mr. Santorum's belief would be that any couple using the "pill" or an IUD would be committing murder or be an accomplice to murder. Very few people actually believe this. Effective birth control has been incredibly successful in alleviating human suffering and has reduced abortions worldwide by tens of MILLIONS! This is a good thing.

    On the flip side of this issue are people who want to become pregnant and can't. In-vitro fertilization involves fertilizing multiple eggs, outside the womb, and then selecting one, or a few healthy embryos to implant in the uterus. The unselected and/or "defective" embryos are either frozen or discarded. In Rick Santorum's world this process of in-vitro fertilization would be immoral and illegal. Tell that to the more than 3 million people alive today because of in-vitro fertilization. Consider the joy it has brought to so many families.

    Of course abortion would be illegal as well in Rick Santorum's world. But I have a friend who would never have been born if it weren't for the availability of safe abortion. Her mother had a serious chronic illness but wanted to become pregnant and have children. She only was willing to become pregnant, however, if she could be assured that she could have a safe abortion if the developing fetus became a threat to her life during her pregnancy. She ended up having two beautiful babies that never would have been born if abortion had not been available when needed.

    Now, there may be people who are inclined to consider that a fertilized egg, with no brain, heart, lungs, or any other organs is the equivalent of a living, breathing, thinking human being. Rick Santorum can BELIEVE that if he wants, but he can't KNOW that. Most people certainly DON'T believe it. Rick and his wife can choose not to avail themselves of birth control, in-vitro fertilization or abortion and that is certainly their right. But he wants to deny, to the rest of us, the right to these very same choices. This extreme position, in-and-of-itself, should disqualify him from serious consideration as a candidate for leader of the free world.

    My fear is that Rick Santorum's popularity among Republican voters may prove Mark Twain to again be correct when he said, "All you need is ignorance and confidence and then success is sure."

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 10:04 PM #
  25. motozak3

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    "I converted to Catholicism ultimately because of my fascination with blah blah blah."

    Guess what FB? I converted to athiesm ultimately because of Catholicism and Protestantism (and to a lesser extent Mormonism.) In other words, I grew up in what was essentially a split Catholic/Mormon household and had Lutheran doctrine drilled into me by my religious zealot Grandmother practically from birth. Bloody UGLY times. Even shittier environment to get stuck growing up/raising a kid in...

    In fact, if you really have to have all the backstory, I "came out of the closet" re: my religion or lack thereof some time ago on this very board; knock yourself out~
    http://archive.pdxradio.com/messages/208652/363869.html

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 10:47 PM #
  26. "Mrs Merkin... with respect... I am not sure it is fair to question anyone's stated reason for choosing the format of their worship and celebration of the relationship with God...

    I find it pretty deep if transubstantiation was key selection criterion for fairandbalanced. It does pretty much exclude all other Christian churches. IMO that decision criterion would provide some great fodder for a psychologist's couch... of course, I am not a psychologist."

    Thanks.

    (I think...)

    But you would need millions of psychologist couches.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 11:43 PM #
  27. Vitalogy

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    Low life hypocrite.

    You are not welcome here. Why you continue to post, even after you said you'd give it up, is beyond me. It proves you are a hypocrite just like all the child humping brainwashed idiots you idolize.

    You are a horrible person and have no redeeming qualities as a human being. And it takes a special effort to earn that distinction.

    Posted on March 1, 2012 - 11:50 PM #
  28. motozak3

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    Hey Vit--

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_process

    I think this is what we're dealling with on here....

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 12:04 AM #
  29. Mrs.Merkin

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    Posts: 1,362

    I find it amazing that this deluded fool who professes such undying devotion to the Catholic Church and it's protocol actually gave up his Lenten promise and his word to God for a message board. A Message Board. The lack of self-sacrifice and reverence astounds me. If I had even one atom of respect for the PopeTroll's blind devotion to the old school, it's gone. What a hypocrite. What a weak, sad man. It's laughable, really. To me, it negates every word out of his piehole.

    I am certainly no great example of a perfect Episcopalian, and I don't pretend to be, but even I have kept my promises of personal sacrifice, and damn, is it ever uncomfortable. And the next time I'm at a Catholic service where nobody knows me, I am taking communion for that woman. God won't mind.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 12:07 AM #
  30. Mrs.Merkin

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    I also find it very self-serving and shallow to see that the Troll posted not just once, just two hours after Andy posted, but 27 times today (so far).

    The lack of self-discipline and self-control is sad.

    And Jesus wept.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 12:32 AM #
  31. motozak3

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    Merk, you have just discovered the deep, dark secret of zombie processes.

    You can keep trying to kill them all you want, but no matter how many times you do they'll never die. They just keep right on running, eating up CPU time, memory and throughput. Like Pocketradio but more subtle.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 02:08 AM #
  32. skeptical

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    Posts: 4,755

    Lamb of God who takes away the trolls of the world have mercy on us.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 02:31 AM #
  33. "And the next time I'm at a Catholic service where nobody knows me, I am taking communion for that woman. God won't mind."

    She's already taking it for herself, even though she knows she shouldn't.

    Go ahead and mock the Church and peform a deliberate sacrilege. You'll find out if "God minds." Read what the Apostle Paul has to say about it.

    "I also find it very self-serving and shallow to see that the Troll posted not just once, just two hours after Andy posted, but 27 times today "

    Counting posts? Your obsession is disturbing.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 07:42 AM #
  34. "You are a horrible person and have no redeeming qualities as a human being. And it takes a special effort to earn that distinction. "

    I don't have a violent temper and am not a verbal abuser. Does that count for something?

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 07:43 AM #
  35. missing_kskd

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    Yeah it does, just like feeding the poor, while at the same time advocating that we legislate bigotry and the attack on Women's rights does.

    Again, see how that works?

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 08:40 AM #
  36. Mrs.Merkin

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    I think you have PopeTroll confused with Broadway. I don't remember RumpledForeskin EVER saying that he actually does any kind of charitable work for the poor or anybody else non-Catholic, besides probably hanging out in front of abortion clinics with a big sign around his neck, and that doesn't count.

    P.S. LOL @ Skep.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 08:59 AM #
  37. Resisting being forced to distribute birth control pills is not an "attack" on women's rights.

    But the "attack" is on the religion so that it is forced to corrupt its doctrine or shut down. (But neither will happen).

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 09:03 AM #
  38. duxrule

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    "But the "attack" is on the religion so that it is forced to corrupt its doctrine or shut down."

    Both assertions are 100% false. NO ONE is trying to "shut down" Catholicism, and it's paranoid to state otherwise.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 09:07 AM #
  39. missing_kskd

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    Yeah Mrs M. I've not seen that either. Was just an example anyway.

    Being "forced" is the right word, but you missed out F&B. The asses that like to make other people's choices for them are BEING FORCED not to.

    See how that works?

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 09:38 AM #
  40. Nope, I don't see that forcing Catholics to participate in someone else's immorality is anything but an attack on religious freedom, no matter how you spin it, and no matter how much you like getting "free" stuff because of government mandate.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 09:54 AM #
  41. Thou art a nut

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 10:59 AM #
  42. PianoMan

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    The doctrine of transubstantiation was one of the factors (though there were other, more important ones) in my leaving the Catholic faith. It was also the single biggest doctrinal dispute that led to the Reformation (the chief conflict of which was over ecclesiastical authority and governance, rather than doctrine).

    What Catholic teaching overlooks is the fact that Jesus is quoted as saying "Do this in memory of me," which indicates that only HE could transubstantiate the bread and wine - not earthly ministers. In other words, according to scripture it was a miracle that only happened once, in that fabled upper room about 1,980 years ago, and was never to be replicated, only emulated as a symbolic, ceremonial remembrance as Protestants do today.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 11:52 AM #
  43. ...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 01:38 PM #
  44. Andy_brown

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    F&BS: "Nope, I don't see"

    You are blind to much of reality, especially when those facts are antithetical to your obscene and immoral beliefs.
    The continued efforts of your kind to control women, define what is correct and generally spread the disease of your mindset is failing. The point of the thread is just that, there are less and less "Catholics" that give a damn about the Vatican and the perverted doctrine that is so un-holy it has become the butt end of many jokes both here on this board and in day to day life. Yes, be free to worship your own way, but don't think for a minute that this is the twelfth century and these are the times of the Crusades.

    You are so brainwashed it isn't even funny anymore.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 01:45 PM #
  45. Mrs.Merkin

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    Brainwashed, yet weak enough to fail basic tenents of self-discipline, self-control, and keeping his promises.
    F'n Unwashed would be better off with the Rajneeshees.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 04:49 PM #
  46. Women take drugs to change their normal bodily functions, men and women mutilate their reproductive organs, a man's butt becomes a recepticle for another man, millions of embryos are made and destroyed, babies are murdered in the womb--I do see the point about "brainwashing." One would have to be brainwashed to see what is so obviously unnatural and evil as good.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 05:34 PM #
  47. You're really striving for a gold medal in the Special Olympics today.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 05:40 PM #
  48. Skybill9

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    "men and women mutilate their reproductive organs..."

    So you are saying that the big V is wrong?

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 07:03 PM #
  49. Yes, I'm saying it's wrong for healthy men or women to be sterilized.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 07:08 PM #
  50. Skybill9

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    Well then you are welcome to have as many kids as you want.

    We got one of each model and that's enough. The big V means my wife doesn't neet to take drugs to keep the family at 4.

    Posted on March 2, 2012 - 07:13 PM #

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