feedback.pdxradio.com Topic: paranoid About Fireworks?

feedback.pdxradio.com Topic: paranoid About Fireworks? http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ feedback.pdxradio.com Topic: paranoid About Fireworks? en Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:24:21 +0000 tadc on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks/page/2#post-3798 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:47:17 +0000 tadc 3798@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ "I suspect what would happen is that you'd have your legal fireworks stands selling them at $X.XX for some quantity and the black market guy selling the Chinese el cheapo version of it out of his trunk at some fraction of that." I think alcohol is a great analogue for this point. Is it even possible to buy bathtub gin? NO! Why? Because legal, regulated booze makes it not worthwhile for the black marketeers... even with what some could call high levels of taxation. You can go to the liquor store and buy a bottle for $5 or $50. Is one going to be 'better' than the other? Yes. Can you be reasonably certain that the $5 bottle won't make you blind? Yes! Why? Because it's legal and regulated. But say you want to buy an M80 or a bag of weed. Do you have choices between various levels of quality? Probably not. You take what you can get. Do you have a reasonable expectation that it won't blow your hand off or be loaded with pesticide? No! Why? Because it's illegal and therefore unregulated. What kind of lesson is presented by a society that makes something illegal, but then proceeds to more-or-less completely ignore enforcement of that law? The lesson is that *laws don't need to be respected*. Every time we try to regulate behavior by piling on one more feckless law, we weaken the rest of the laws. missing_kskd on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3778 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:19 +0000 missing_kskd 3778@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ Ok then, I support that, but only if we actually STEP IN then. If we want to shut this stuff down, "to protect the kids", then actually do that, rather than this passive / aggressive "fireworks are really bad, see the story at 11, but nobody really is gonna tell if you want to do them anyway" crap. Either it matters, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, then NOBODY should have any problem at all with those of us wanting to light off some good fireworks doing so, and educating younger people about it. Which is it? skeptical on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3762 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:55:26 +0000 skeptical 3762@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ There are a bit too many kids having kids in our society to expect responsible behavior with fireworks. This is a good reason for society to step in. Besides, talk about a conflicted message for kids -- playing with matches - a no-no, lighting FIRE works and EXPLOSIVES -- ok! missing_kskd on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3758 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:25:29 +0000 missing_kskd 3758@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ I didn't mean release by playing with explosives. What I did mean was that failure to engage in a lot of activities, can result in tension --desire to move and do. Where that's the case, and there are not a lot of options, kids get bored. That's when the trouble starts. To be perfectly clear, I don't think sales of M80 class fireworks to kids should be permitted. I do however, have no problem with adults being able to purchase them. Some points got co-mingled here, so time to clarify. It's not ok for kids to just go and do dangerous stuff. It is however, also not ok to inhibit parents from mentoring their kids --educating them, guiding them, about dangerous stuff, WHEN SAID STUFF IS AVAILABLE TO THE KIDS. Right now, today, in this town, kids CAN get these things. Where they CAN get these things, they WILL get these things. It must also be noted that where kids can go and do stuff, they WILL go and do stuff. So, I'm opposed to making the things like this illegal, unless that regulation is effective. It's not in this case, so why bother? The contradictory message between what is the effective norm (regulation does not matter, everybody has "good" fireworks), and the law ("good" fireworks are illegal) marginalizes the positive impact, and puts the burden on the parent to sort mixed messages out and set solid norms. So there is that. What I do mean by "healthy release" is having a pool of activities sufficient to challenge the kids, let them gain good experience, and generally speaking "drain" them such that their need to play, do, build, go is kept to a healthy state, not building to an unhealthy state. This is why we have kids hunting with parents, building stuff, blowing things up (and those can be little things, controlled things), riding, cutting, programming, yelling, shooting, driving, and all sorts of other things normally associated with some level of risk. Bottom line is this: If we set the norm that it is ok for people to use guns, and that they are setting good norms by passing along their experience and skill to their kids who want to use guns, then it is also ok for people to use fireworks, and it is ok to set good norms by passing along their experience and skill, to those kids that want to use fireworks. In the case of the gun, nobody just hands a kid a fire arm and lets them go. However, they do regularly see the kid has reached a state of competency where they can use the gun on their own for approved activities, after working with them to educate them and bring them that necessary skill and common sense. (hunting, shoot for skill) I see zero difference between this managed danger and risk surrounding guns (and other dangerous things) and fireworks. If there is a material difference, then why not then enforce the regulation and set consistent norms, eliminating this problem? Andy_brown on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3757 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:44:18 +0000 Andy_brown 3757@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ "I don't think comparing M-80's to cocaine, heroin, or booze is really comparable." I was referring to legality and danger of abuse, so they are quite comparable. You can't buy a fifth of Jack if you're a kid, and I think you shouldn't be able to buy M-80's if you're a kid. Sure, there is always a complicit adult, but that wasn't the point. You wrote "if kids could get them" and I'm saying they shouldn't be able to, at least legally. "Heck, they can't get a little healthy release!" Playing with explosives is not a healthy release. Unsupervised, peer pressure situations easily lead to stupid behavior just like the sparklers in the glass bottle. Kids don't always "grok" it out right. If we're trying to evolve to a safer, less violent society, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (to get a release by blowing up stuff). missing_kskd on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3756 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:32:37 +0000 missing_kskd 3756@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ Total free ranger. Me too. Would not have had it any other way. Is there any wonder so many kids act out these days? Heck, they can't get a little healthy release! Vitalogy on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3753 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:00:31 +0000 Vitalogy 3753@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ I don't think comparing M-80's to cocaine, heroin, or booze is really comparable. And, when I was blowing up M-80's, they were legally ordered from Ohio (Black Magic, I think) but were illegal in Oregon. We just had them shipped directly to us and a few of the neighbor kids would all go in together and order a big order to get the discount. Never saw anyone get injured or a house burn down that I knew of. I guess I grew up a free ranger too. Taking jumps on my bike, flipping over without a helmet. Riding my bike way beyond where I was supposed to go on busy roads. Climbing trees. Jumping off roofs. We were the jackass show before camcorders were availble to record it. Without the drugs and tatoos of course. missing_kskd on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3748 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:07:38 +0000 missing_kskd 3748@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ Welcome forgot! We do that. Jump on in and enjoy! You won't meet finer people on the Internet than you will here. missing_kskd on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3747 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:06:50 +0000 missing_kskd 3747@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ Well, where and when I lived with it being legal, most everybody bought the legal stuff. Again, solid norms play out nicely. Who bought the black market stuff? Morons and fools looking for cheap deals, that's who. The norms were basically, "why buy the unknown, black hat stuff, when the known stuff is right there?" Makes sense doesn't it? Sure it does to all but the fools, and the fools will be fools anyway, regulation or no. More importantly, there was no significant taboo about any of it, meaning the kid dynamics I mentioned above were in play. We got "intro to big ass, like you might lose a hand fire works", complete with vivid discussion from uncle Ray. (who had a run in or two to share with us) Like with the guns, the stuff was respected and most everybody got to see it all play out, before doing it themselves, and without having to sneak off and try shit. You do fireworks the exact same way you do guns, and the danger and unknown potential of the two are very similar. There are not absolutes on these things, just norms --and those are largely characterized as set expectations and information that helps to balance lack of experience. Having a mentor in dangerous things helps a lot too, and where it's legal to do so, most will have that option. Where it's not, most don't and that's my core objection to the current regulation we have on fireworks. It's one thing, if the regulation actually worked well enough to make the stuff very difficult to obtain, but that's not the case and where the danger is for younger people here in this day and time. There is another thing too. Some kinds of things we don't really want to share. Take the art of making poison. There is a taboo on that, and it's a good one in that anybody with the motivation to do that probably has some issues. There is a very small black market, and it serves the deviants, with the majority of us caring less. That prohibition works. With fireworks, there exists a significant motivation to explore them, and where there is that, we need few taboos so that we can set norms so that people have the best chance of doing the right things more often than not and that's as good as we get as people. That's realism. Fantasy is structuring regulation believing that it will eliminate the problem simply because the regulation exists. Remember, I've written here many, many times that solid regulation of behavior involves money, norms, physics and law. Focus on one, while ignoring the potential of the others brings poor, unbalanced solutions to problems. I generally don't approve of that, simply because we can do better, if we consider things apart from silly taboos. Skybill9 on "paranoid About Fireworks?" http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/paranoid-about-fireworks#post-3736 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:11:41 +0000 Skybill9 3736@http://feedback.pdxradio.com/ Welcome to the board Forgot!! You will soon be addicted too! What's the "CW" mean? CW as in Morse code on the ham bands?